As some of you know, I've been having quite a challenging time with our resident tuner Chuck "SUPERTUNE" Quenzler this summer.
In March, we exchanged a few PMs and emails about getting some tuning done on my '81 JDM RD350LC cylinders and head. At that time he quoted me a "three week turnaround".
June 17th, my parts arrived at his shop.
July 2nd he said "later that week" as soon as he was done with a project "your up to bat".
August 13th he said everything was done and ready to ship later that week.
September 18th I receive this email:
"Jim,
Top end is due for delivery today or tomorrow.
I did have the cylinder get some slight damage with cracking a small piece off the sleeve skirt off while packing over the weekend.
The damage is minimal, but is there. It will have no effect of running or piston skirt issues.
Due to the damage and late finishing up job, your paid up.
Make sure the cylinders are properly finish honed to size for your pistons.
A pair of head o-rings are included.
Chuck"
That day, when I get home from work, this is what I find on my front porch:
(https://i.ibb.co/L85DvnL/505-B6746-7-F2-D-4-CED-A3-B5-D6-EBC4913-D05.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/5B27x7Z/7031-DE7-A-0-DD2-4804-BF31-18-C38-D07-F3-F1.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/VQYqJ4c/5-B372-B5-E-0-AE5-49-C0-89-FF-0166-E607-B490.jpg)
Now, I don't know about you all, but this looks like way more than "minimal ... slight damage". I have no desire to risk piston failure ruining my freshly rebuilt crank. I also have no desire to live with the nagging doubt involved with running damaged parts. Fear of the "whispering death" is bad enough on a 2T even when you know your shit is correct.
My total invoice was for around $700. I had paid him (at my initiative) $500 at the beginning of September hoping to give him some incentive o finish the job. This, "all paid up" means he gave be a discount of $200 (+/- 30%) for the damage he did to my parts.
At this point, a full three months after my parts arrived at his shop in Florida, I'm out $500 and have a pile of beautifully machined/ported custom parts that only work together as a whole. And a significant part of that whole is damaged, and in my opinion, unusable.
For Chuck to shrug off the damage as "minimal" and treat it as "no big deal" is frankly, insulting. I've worked in service industry jobs (remodeling/custom carpentry/home inspections) my entire adult life. This is simply not how one does business. When you fuck up, you own it, and do whatever it takes to make sure the customer is satisfied. Even if it is at your expense.
I see the only logical resolution is for me to spend the $200 "refund" on a replacement cylinder and ship it and the good one back to Florida to be matched. Thankfully I've already found a replacement standard bore cylinder, but it ain't gonna be cheap.
Of course, I've called and emailed Chuck a few times since my damaged goods arrived, encouraging him to do the right thing, but true to form, there has been no response.
As a point of reference, here's what they are saying about it over on Norbo's UK LC forum:
http://rdlccrazy.proboards.com/thread/48749/run
It needs a resolution, hope you get one at the earliest!
:umm: Whats wrong with gasket area on damaged cylinder & exhaust ports?
Why someone who seems to be highly regarded in the trade would do that is beyond me :umm:. WTF pretty much covers it so hope it gets sorted without to much hassle.
Quote from: Gill on September 22, 2019, 12:43:26 AM
It needs a resolution, hope you get one at the earliest!
:umm: Whats wrong with gasket area on damaged cylinder & exhaust ports?
Good eye, Gill.
Base gasket area appears to have a bit of cutter damage, and flange at head bolt area appears to be distorted from being dropped (arrows).
(https://i.ibb.co/hRph3SS/9-FD4-B676-AB82-4077-923-B-A28-B669-EC44-D.jpg)
Exhaust ports are the same size, but the flanges are different as one is an early cyl and the damaged one is a later one.
Me......I'd insist on a sleeve bore/hone and port matching w/one week turnaround. That's just me.
I know Chuck. He is the most standup guy I know. He has given so much to the 2 stroke community. I have seen him at 2 gap meets and Barber last year. Goes from
Person to person helping and not asking or getting anything.
He will make this right.
Had he told me this will not cause an issue I would trust him 100 percent.
Personally I would not have taken this public to 2 forms questioning his integrity.
Quote from: paul1478 on September 22, 2019, 11:29:24 AM
I know Chuck. He is the most standup guy I know. He has given so much to the 2 stroke community. I have seen him at 2 gap meets and Barber last year. Goes from
Person to person helping and not asking or getting anything.
He will make this right.
Had he told me this will not cause an issue I would trust him 100 percent.
This what I have been hearing for years, and exactly why I wanted to give Chuck my business. I firmly believe in supporting those who support the community. I like supporting the little guy who stands on his work and doesn't rely on a flashy website or Facebook bullshit to generate business. I always strive to "keep it local", and even though Chuck is at the diagonally opposite corner of the country from me, his presence on this forum makes him local in my mind.
As I stated above, the issue isn't whether or not the damaged sleeve will cause problems or not. I ride my 2T's hard, and put many miles on them each year. Most of these miles are out of town on long rides in Eastern Oregon. It is already stressful enough listening to every pulse of the engine mile after mile. Do I also want to be worrying about the damn piston skirt breaking and fucking up my brand new crank? I've seized my TDR at 75mph on a crowded freeway in the past. Not something I want to do again if I can help it.
Really, though, all of that ^ is beside the point. I sent my parts off in good condition and they came back damaged. Nothing more, nothing less. Chucks problem (breaking my shit) has become my problem (living with it).
:eek:
Well Chuck I think you should contact your customer and nip this in the bud, my 2cents.
I think it should be taken to PM/email/phone call/etc. No point in dragging either party through the mud until a resolution (amicable or otherwise) to the issue is reached ;)
Quote from: Redbird on September 23, 2019, 06:59:04 PM
I think it should be taken to PM/email/phone call/etc. No point in dragging either party through the mud until a resolution (amicable or otherwise) to the issue is reached ;)
LOL, I called Chuck as soon as I unpacked my parts and he still hasn't called me back. Emailed him too. :bang:
And you figured the next logical step was a public shaming? Clearly you're the only one acting like an adult in this. :o
It's like my Grandpappy used to say "If you wanna catch flies... Shit works just as good as Honey. It just depends on what you wanna smell like afterwards".
I have no dog in this fight either way, so I'll just say 'Y'all have fun with that' :thumbs:
I have worked as a prototype machinist for almost 30 years. After looking at that cyl, maybe it got launched out of a lathe, smacked him in the head and hit the shop floor? The gouge in the gasket surface could be from a tool hit. So maybe Chuck got hurt?? I dunno, :umm:
It really and truly sucks your liner got cracked (however it happened). However, it will not hurt anything. You can't see it and your engine will run just as strong and just as long (dependent, that is, upon the skills of the person doing the final assembly). Sounds like Chuck did the best he cold as far as compensation. No, you did't send him a cylinder with a broken liner; but he did the port work, assured you the broken liner was not an issue (his word and abilities must have some value to you since you sent him your parts in the first place) and took 30% off the bill as a show of good faith.
Choosing to buy more parts and spend more money is simply a personal choice, and has nothing to do with Chuck, the parts in hand, or Chuck's work. The nick in the base gasket surface is literally nothing, and if you think the ding on the edge of the cylinder is an issue, just take a mill bastard to it and make sure it is flat. Two seconds with a sharpie will cover up the missing paint.
Do what ever you choose to do at this point, but understand it is all on you and has nothing to do with Chuck or his work and, in a big boy world, has questionable motives being publicly vented here.
What I take away from all the pictures, being the pragmatist that I am, is how shitty and porous the factory Yamaha liner castings are. So no more badmouthing those cheap RD350 cylinders being offered out there. ;D
For real, that liner is alarmingly porous.
Quote from: pdxjim on September 22, 2019, 01:22:59 PM
I've seized my TDR at 75mph on a crowded freeway in the past.
What on earth are you doing riding a 2-stroke on a freeway?
Quote from: Mgmark on September 24, 2019, 11:30:22 AM
Quote from: pdxjim on September 22, 2019, 01:22:59 PM
I've seized my TDR at 75mph on a crowded freeway in the past.
What on earth are you doing riding a 2-stroke on a freeway?
why wouldn't you? i do it all the time.
I've put well over 10k highway miles on my RD
Quote from: Mgmark on September 24, 2019, 11:30:22 AM
Quote from: pdxjim on September 22, 2019, 01:22:59 PM
I've seized my TDR at 75mph on a crowded freeway in the past.
What on earth are you doing riding a 2-stroke on a freeway?
Funny thing is, I almost never ride in town. Too much traffic, too many people looking at their phones instead of where they're going, too many stoplights, not enough corners ... etc.
When we want to ride streetbikes, we head up into the hills, or out east. We did a 100+mile club ride a few weeks ago over to Detroit Lake, and do a 1000+mile weekend out to Eastern OR every year. All of these destinations involve some freeway time. I'd prefer not to do long slogs on the slab, but if you wanna get anywhere that's usually what it takes.
No big deal once your bike is dialed in.
Quote from: Mgmark on September 24, 2019, 11:30:22 AM
Quote from: pdxjim on September 22, 2019, 01:22:59 PM
I've seized my TDR at 75mph on a crowded freeway in the past.
What on earth are you doing riding a 2-stroke on a freeway?
I could be wrong, but I think that I detect sarcasm in this statement. but I've been wrong once before.
Quote from: DesmoDrew on September 24, 2019, 08:09:31 AM
What I take away from all the pictures, being the pragmatist that I am, is how shitty and porous the factory Yamaha liner castings are. So no more badmouthing those cheap RD350 cylinders being offered out there. ;D
I thought the same thing but I think the thing with those other generic offerings is that liners don't stay put and the porting is way off.
Quote from: sav0r on September 24, 2019, 08:38:54 AM
For real, that liner is alarmingly porous.
Agreed. Speaking from my limited experience with my RD250 on it's 2nd overbore, it's amazing how thin the liner gets yet works so well.
I don't see a problem with taking this public after no response from someone that damaged a part and shrugged it off.
WHO CARES if this is 'not a problem to run' in the opinion of Chuck. It comes down to the preference of the customer for a reasonable resolution when you damage something. This is the definition of negligence (add reckless if you wish) and that is legally the case that he should be made whole. There is not a lot of wiggle room here.
Also, did you previously weld back on part of the cylinder exhaust flange far right in the picture prior to shipping to him?
I have had issues in the past, dropped a cylinder and broke fins.I found and purchased a good looking cylinder to replace my mistake. Cost me time and money, part of making customers happy.
I have closed my shop to new customers, can't do work in the heat. Need a change of pace.
Have had 90% great experiences with customers. The 10% can relay change your mood.
I hope you two find a solution that works for both of you. :righteous:
JT
Chuck is a good tuner and builder, as well as human.
From the tune of the posted whom i'm sure can be confirmed, it is not that is happened, it is hte fact that it was passed off as 'not a big deal' and zero return communication. As you just explained, you've made mistake (which absolutely everyone does), owned up, and rectified your mistake.
Part of being a good human and reputable customer service (with a grain of salt, not all people are reasonable in their expectations) is to own up when you make a mistake and fix things.
In my experience is sales and risk mgmt, it is not the mistake that counts but blowing it off and not attempting to rectify that would get you fired.
Thanks everyone for keeping this civil, and for the positive words of support for Chuck. I know he's good people or I wouldn't have sent my parts off to him in the first place.
It's been a week, and still no word, but I truly feel the good will prevail, and all will be right in the end.
Just wanted to take this opportunity to share a pic of the beautiful work Chuck did (damaged sleeve not shown). Skimmed head, totally re-shaped domes, "update porting", cyls decked and cut for o-rings, etc. I had thought he was modding the reed boxes for yz85 vforce reeds, but we will have to cross that bridge later I guess. Anyway, it's a damn shame the sleeve got damaged, 'coz the rest of the work is sweet.
(https://i.ibb.co/28brw96/6830646-C-D30-D-49-C1-A930-455-ACD661119.jpg)
And a couple pics of my lonely bottom end ...
(https://i.ibb.co/52hrJn6/D0233-ADF-7-B08-485-E-AB68-A0-EFB2-CB4053.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/485RVgv/F1587-B62-1-ADF-4818-A37-D-D7-C316358-E70.jpg)
Quote from: m in sc on September 24, 2019, 11:35:20 AM
Quote from: Mgmark on September 24, 2019, 11:30:22 AM
Quote from: pdxjim on September 22, 2019, 01:22:59 PM
I've seized my TDR at 75mph on a crowded freeway in the past.
What on earth are you doing riding a 2-stroke on a freeway?
why wouldn't you? i do it all the time.
Me too. Rode my RZ350 from Maryland to Dallas Texas and back. WTF?
That is pretty. I like the aquablast on the cases.
Nice clean looking motor!. I'm sure there will be a happy ending when this is all done and over with.
+1 on the cases.
WOW!
Starting a post with WTF?
I was writing a response to your email that's in my draft folder with a lot of inquiring on the best way to work
though your concerns. I could have and would have completely build a new topend free of charge.
Not so much of that option now...
I'm going to start with a BIG PUBLIC apology over what this has become.
When I saw what you posted over at the LC forum...without waiting for my reply was mindblowing.
I shut down after that for a bit...
You showed me you don't even have a clue about me, now this?
Flaming on a forum before you received a email about this was inconceivable.
I'm going to respond right here now.
The 1st quote you speak of 3 weeks was for what work? Do you remember? I do. Have the quote right here...
Mill the head and do update porting. Yes, I said 3 weeks. 2 operations.
Then you start researching about o-ringing the cylinders instead of keeping the factory expensive oem headgasket.
(*added work)
We then both agreed to go that route. Then the build invoice changed with a much more work as when you take out a .052 headgasket then measure squish and find the stock squish casting has very bad consistency and has to have the head go through a complete re-machining of all surfaces, also because when you do this machine work to get the squish perfect the compression ratio is like in the methanol spec at just over 14:1!
(*added work)
To get to the corrected compression ratio, squish ratio, squish clearance and MSV in an area that will run with this setup on pump fuels and you wanting to run Garrets Moto Carera pipes there in a lot of mock up work, CC'ing work and calculations to be done.
(*added work)
During that process after I had previously lapped the cylinders and were flat, but once mounted in the mill to cut for o-rings the cylinders showed .004 and .005 out of square and both different heights as measured with a thousandths dial indicator. No way to control the proper depth of the o-ring grove which is very crucial to proper sealing for a Viton o-ring.
At this point the decks of he cylinders has to be milled to be corrected to move forward to cutting the o-ring grooves.
(*added work)
With the build platform changing as we went, I ran into over scheduling as races and other engines are always on my plate to get done.
(daughter was in critical hospital stay during this span of time)
Another BIG apology!
Yes, we also discussed to go and open up the intake track for the YZ85 reeds through this time span and I totally forgot to put that work on the job invoice! Again, I will make more detailed changes to my work process. Keep in mind it also was not on you invoice and you not were billed for this like you implied on the LC forum...
I did forget to take off the reed spacers off the invoice after you sent an email stating not to send any. Which I did do right...
During the finished job process I had just finished washing the cylinders, rubbing cylinder walls out with Marvel Mystery oil like I do for reassembly
of the top end to be bagged up and were laying on a terri cloth towel on my stainless top engine assembly bench. I was using the tape gun on the cardboard box and set the gun down and it stuck to the towel and I grabbed it again and tape gun pulled on the towel and cylinder fell, hit the floor and broke a small portion of the sleeve off on the exhaust skirt. That's on me. It is a very small portion of sleeve and will not be of any hindrance of performance and longevity on a piston skirt. I wouldn't have even suggested it if there was even a slight chance of a failure of any kind.
I have been building engines and 2 stroke my entire life, I have 5 piston part #'s with Wiseco that are my own design. I started with their basic layout print to start and designed every aspect of the complete piston. I have designed and built 185-215 HP twin cylinder engines, about 1800 of them...
I have bored and honed 15,000 cylinders between my 3 boring and honing machines, I bought my Rottler boring bar brand new in 1979.
Many Championships have been won with my direct involvement in engine building and even with my own designs.
I can tell that I'm not your average Joe.
I'm not going any further with this and NOT turning it into another he said, he said like we had in a vintage smoke post on the old forum.
I'm refunding all of the $$ billed for work on the cylinders and only invoicing for the head total machine work and mockup, cc'ing and design.
This grants your your wish to go to San Diego like you stated on the LC forum.
I'm out.
Chuck
Chuck 'SUPERTUNE' Quenzler III
Team Scream Racing LLC
1920 Sherwood St. STE A
Clearwater, FL. 33765
(727)458-8619
cqsupertune@tampabay.rr.com
Chuck, we don't know each other but I have been concerned about your health. Glad to hear that you are okay. Relating to this issue, I am not taking sides.
All of this could have been avoided with better communication.
I know you are a busy man, but waiting a week or longer (over a month actually) between emails and calls just doesn't cut it. When everyone has a cellphone in their pocket, there just is no excuse for poor communication.
You had time to post on this forum but no time to respond to my calls and emails?
Again, I have nothing but respect for your achievements and dedication to 2T development and innovation. Also, thank you for all you do to help on this forum free of charge. If I had any doubts about your knowledge or credentials I never would have sent you my parts in the first place. I meant what I said about "keeping it local", and you are our guy, Chuck.
Thanks for the refund, I very much appreciate finally hearing your side of things. In the three month span we spoke on the phone for maybe two minutes total, and only a few brief emails. In my world, quick communication and management of expectations is everything. I don't feel there was enough of either in this instance.
Would be nice to meet you in person one day and put this all in the past 👍
Looks like all parties had their say.
I'll put my .02 in here:
On that note, having have dealt or communicated with both Jim and Chuck for almost 20 years either on forums or in person, I can vouch for both of their characters and good will, and would NEVER hesitate to trust either one of them implicitly. .
This thread will be locked because there isn't anything more to say about it.
Much respect to all who commented, and thank you all for keeping it all civil as possible. :toot: