Some previous threads on the above subject intermixed with other subjects.
So want to get the consensus from what everyone is doing, & why.
Pros & Cons of each.
I have my idea, which I will state a little later, after some comments.
Oil Pump:
adjustments
how do you know the ratio
Premix:
what ratio
out riding & need gas.
M
one rd i have no place for it, water pump is there.
another: weight savings and simplicity.
otherwise, i always run them. both r5s are on them as is the t500, etc.
The maximum output for the oil pump is 5.1~5.7cc for 200 strokes. This is for both lines together, and at maximum stroke.
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On one of the FB groups.. this question always starts long drawn out cat fights :devil: :devil:
But it is a good question. :cheesy:
Ill say I run the pump in my enduros, always reliable. My old Suzuki 185 had one and it never failed either.
What I want to know is how hard it really is to rebuild a pump.. having never done so.
Rebuilding a pump is quite easy, but;
It must be disassembled and assembled correctly with the correct parts.
The check valves need to be checked for correct operation while the casting is still bare.
You must know if what you are putting back together is fit for purpose.
Will need a reshim after building, ie not just the shims that were on it before.
Examples are; One guy rebuilt his motor and the pump, then rebuilt the motor again and I rebuilt the pump.
A motor blew up on the dyno, Due to incorrect seals.
Wrong pump on the bike is common. The photo below is left over gears JUST from the wrong pump on the bike.
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(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210420/132475948b564af77f87ce129a729be2.jpg)
So we are now getting into the some of the Cons for the oil pump.
If its working it has to be adjusted and checked after certain periods
After adjustment, how do you know if you are getting the proper CC's of oil, unless its checked
Rebuilding must be done meticulously otherwise you get what Arrow posted.
Not everyone, including me, know how to do that
The output check that I posted about is something that you won't need to do very often at all.
The checking of the minimum stroke is something you should be doing every 2000 miles, adjustment of that is not always necessary, its basically just a check of the gap. This is virtually all the maintenance required for the pump.
The main 10mm bore (the heart of a good pump) is capable of moon miles.
The cams can wear out if spec. and there can be wear on mostly the external areas, but the flow check will show if this is the case, that's what it's for checking every combination of wear.
I've seen pumps as early as 1967 still well in spec. I've thrown away pumps from 1995 where every part is scrap.
The correct minimum stroke which is a very easy check, controls the amount of oil that comes out of the pump all the way through the rev range.
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the only con to a pump, IMHO, is caused by how it was (mis) treated and (not) maintained. Just like anything mechanical.
So how about some Premix folks to discuss.
Mix ratio is always exact to the spec you mixed it at.
No wear & tear as in the pump.
how about getting more fluid in the case, an ounce + more due to the gear volume that is not there anymore.
How do you adjust the ratio with the pump = the shims.
What if you want to run heavy or lighter on the oil, as the oil these days is better then back then.
I have 4 bikes on premix.. I run 3oz to a galllon. no need to change ratio if the bikes tuned for it. :twocents:
Quote from: Milan on April 20, 2021, 02:46:26 PM
So how about some Premix folks to discuss.
Mix ratio is always exact to the spec you mixed it at.
No wear & tear as in the pump.
how about getting more fluid in the case, an ounce + more due to the gear volume that is not there anymore.
How do you adjust the ratio with the pump = the shims.
What if you want to run heavy or lighter on the oil, as the oil these days is better then back then.
I would never adjust a pump less than standard. 2 strokes don't last as long as 4 strokes so less oil is not good.
I had a guy call me recently, 5 years or so after I built a pump for him. He said its been faultless, "but it smokes just a tad less than it did 5 years ago".
What milage has it done since the job, I asked? 15000 (miles)
I said when did you last check the minimum stroke, he said never!
It should have been checked 7 times in that milage.
I mention this in my advice doc.
There is only so much you can do to help people and keep these bikes running well.
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m in sc
3 oz per gallon
So 42.7 to 1 ratio.
I was hesitant to 36 to 1
So my pump is out right now. from PO
In discussions with Arrow about sending mine to him, and also finding a replacement one.
I was drinking beers this past weekend, and was thinking about just staying with the premix.
modern oil its fine. back in the old days i was a firm believer in 4 oz to a gallon but not nec, and i -thrash on- my motors. 3 oz gallon is fine. 3.5 if i thrown in some castor for smell. :whistle:
My RZ has over 37K miles on the original pump; the LC I'm building will most likely be premix, as I don't anticipate it being a long-range tourer. I keep my fuel life simple by buying good quality two-stroke oil and mixing 40:1, and filling everything from that same can. Chain saws, line trimmers, blowers, my KTM and even the lawnmower when I feel like smelling some oil in the air.
" Long Range Tourer "
Whats your definition of that, & why not.
Yes I like the idea of 1 mix for all equipment.
I ran my hot rod RD at 20:1 for a few years. It wasn't bad with the smoke, one belch on the first throttle up after starting. Now 32:1. When I took the top end off and looked down in at the crank there was a pool of oil in there, no wear and tear of the cylinders and pistons. I think my RZ smokes more on the pump than the RD on premix.
No pump on my 73 because I have a Banshee based motor in there. I suppose I could get a RZ pump and fit that, but for the price I would have to pay for a RZ pump I will just stay with premix at 40:1.
This is the good thing with the oil pump, there are some people out there that don't know that the oil pump kicks out the equivalent 20:1 at full bore. And around 90:1 at idle.
There are lots of problems here in the UK at the moment with pumps over oiling. Pumps I've done too. Problem is pattern throttle cables that don't give the correct range on the oil pump part. Causes the pump to over oil in the lower rev range. I just ask people to send me two photos, then tell them to buy a genuine Yamaha cable.
After all, £100 for a cable is cheaper than £130 for two cables.
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Quote from: rodneya on April 20, 2021, 05:24:15 PM
No pump on my 73 because I have a Banshee based motor in there. I suppose I could get a RZ pump and fit that, but for the price I would have to pay for a RZ pump I will just stay with premix at 40:1.
The 73 pump oils more than the RZ350 pump, the conversion is easy. One pump can be made into many different variants.
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Arrow.
You hit it on the head.
Exactly what my engineering mind thought.
The oil pump does variable volume flow wirh rpm.
Hi ratio at idle, lower ratio for top end.
That i could see as a Pro for the pump.
So, benefits to both ways.
How about long, multi tank rides, as mentioned
Quote from: Arrow on April 20, 2021, 05:30:36 PM
This is the good thing with the oil pump, there are some people out there that don't know that the oil pump kicks out the equivalent 20:1 at full bore. And around 90:1 at idle.
There are lots of problems here in the UK at the moment with pumps over oiling. Pumps I've done too. Problem is pattern throttle cables that don't give the correct range on the oil pump part. Causes the pump to over oil in the lower rev range. I just ask people to send me two photos, then tell them to buy a genuine Yamaha cable.
After all, £100 for a cable is cheaper than £130 for two cables.
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I think one of the problems is the genuine yamaha cables aren't exactly around in the US. The only way to make one is to look up individual part numbers and hope ebay works out.
Is there a way to make a pattern cable work? (mines a pattern high top from yabbits).
Quote from: Striker1423 on April 20, 2021, 06:21:41 PM
Quote from: Arrow on April 20, 2021, 05:30:36 PM
This is the good thing with the oil pump, there are some people out there that don't know that the oil pump kicks out the equivalent 20:1 at full bore. And around 90:1 at idle.
There are lots of problems here in the UK at the moment with pumps over oiling. Pumps I've done too. Problem is pattern throttle cables that don't give the correct range on the oil pump part. Causes the pump to over oil in the lower rev range. I just ask people to send me two photos, then tell them to buy a genuine Yamaha cable.
After all, £100 for a cable is cheaper than £130 for two cables.
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I think one of the problems is the genuine yamaha cables aren't exactly around in the US. The only way to make one is to look up individual part numbers and hope ebay works out.
Is there a way to make a pattern cable work? (mines a pattern high top from yabbits).
It's more of an issue with the UK 4LO and 4L1 models.
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Quote from: Milan on April 20, 2021, 06:12:07 PM
Arrow.
You hit it on the head.
Exactly what my engineering mind thought.
The oil pump does variable volume flow wirh rpm.
Hi ratio at idle, lower ratio for top end.
That i could see as a Pro for the pump.
So, benefits to both ways.
How about long, multi tank rides, as mentioned
The pump will also vary the ratio, with more throttle opening and the same revs, eg. going up hill. It also provides full lubrication decelerating with the throttle shut.
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Quote from: Milan on April 20, 2021, 03:59:48 PM
" Long Range Tourer "
Whats your definition of that, & why not.
Yes I like the idea of 1 mix for all equipment.
It's all relative, right? I rode my RZ from central Washington to Laguna Seca in 1993, something like 16 hours of riding. I suspect many people would call that long range...certainly longer than I would ride that RZ today, but in my little garage, it remains my everyday rider for short or long distances. It's on the pump, so I can throw a bottle of oil in my bag and just try to find a gas station with decent fuel. I envision my LC being more of a tank-of-fuel duration ride bike, and maybe I'll change my mind about that.
For me, it comes down to "how long is this ride going to be?"
If I were to ride to California again? I'd want something more relaxed, comfortable and better appointed.
First time in this thread that this is brought up:
"I can throw a bottle of oil in my bag"
My question is Why?
The bike has a 54 oz oil tank on it.
Why is a bottle of oil needed.
I am planning on either putting the pump back on,
or
Putting this item on the bike in the triangle area below the oil tank cover.
Simple push button valve, fitted behind a matching plastic cover.
In that manner I can always access the oil in the tank with a tucked up hose.
Just need a shot glass, coffee cup, soda bottle, etc...
Safe to assume if he's riding any kind of distance, 2t oil gets pretty generic when bought at gas stations. If you want to run a specific type and your oil tank runs low on long trips, what else can you do?
Yes! Easier to carry your own preferred oil than to be the guy who has to find a bike shop open on a Sunday morning that has someone working who knows what injector oil is. I'm not terribly picky about oil, but Ace Hardware outboard mix isn't going in my little tank.
Misunderstanding here.
The oil is in the bikes tank.
Your preferred oil.
The bike will use that oil whether it is going thru the pump. or you drain some with the push valve to make your premix.
Oil tank has 54 OZ in it,
enough to make 18 gallons of premix @ 3 oz per gallon.
18 gallons x 50 mpg ( guess) = 900 miles
So you would need to fill up the oil tank for long trips over that, regardless which way it is used.
So for the premix way, you just would not have to carry small bottles of oil.
I understand that basically pumps oil into something you can then dump in the tank.
I think you might misunderstand the mileage of these bikes and the capacity of the oil tank over a long period of riding.
When setup at stock my bike got roughly 34 miles to a gallon. I'd make it around 100 miles before needing to gas up. Oil consumption was roughly 1/4 of a tank of oil. Seems high, but that's about how much oil my bike used.
If I rode on a 200 mile one way rip, I'd have to bring an extra quart of oil just in case the tank ran too low.
Oil consumption on these bikes is actually pretty high from my experience. Could be my oil pump, but I've never had another one to compare it to.
ive seen people try to use the tank as reservoir for premix, its always a pain in the ass unless you add a higher flowing valve or spigot. :twocents:
I always carry spare oil under the seat just in case. or in a tank bag. I carry 4 oz nygalene (sp?) containers with them marked off in oz measurements, they fit nicely in my jacket pocket if i need to do a refill. On the grom thats premix, i can carry 8 oz under the seat in 2 separate bottles.
Or, just run the pump. way easier.
https://www.amazon.com/Nalgene-Wide-Mouth-Rectangular-Bottle/dp/B0088LOTS2
" ive seen people try to use the tank as reservoir for premix, its always a pain in the ass unless you add a higher flowing valve or spigot. "
yes, thats what the valve above does.
press button, gravity drain from oil tank.
I have to test how fast it comes out to see if acceptable.
oops
Quote from: Striker1423 on April 21, 2021, 10:59:00 AM
Quote from: Milan on April 21, 2021, 10:50:38 AM
" ive seen people try to use the tank as reservoir for premix, its always a pain in the ass unless you add a higher flowing valve or spigot. "
yes, thats what the valve above does.
press button, gravity drain from oil tank.
I have to test how fast it comes out to see if acceptable.
Ever pull the hose off and drain the oil tank?
It's slow.
Unless that unit pre-fills as you ride and can be made to just dump 3 ounces at a pump, you'll be waiting a while. Not agonizingly long, but long enough to look around and take in the news on the pump screen. :twocents:
Quote from: Striker1423 on April 21, 2021, 10:25:29 AM
I understand that basically pumps oil into something you can then dump in the tank.
I think you might misunderstand the mileage of these bikes and the capacity of the oil tank over a long period of riding.
When setup at stock my bike got roughly 34 miles to a gallon. I'd make it around 100 miles before needing to gas up. Oil consumption was roughly 1/4 of a tank of oil. Seems high, but that's about how much oil my bike used.
If I rode on a 200 mile one way rip, I'd have to bring an extra quart of oil just in case the tank ran too low.
Oil consumption on these bikes is actually pretty high from my experience. Could be my oil pump, but I've never had another one to compare it to.
Your consumption is pretty normal. On the 4L0 its approx. 2 full tanks of fuel to 1 liter of 2t.
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Quote from: Striker1423 on April 21, 2021, 10:25:29 AM
I understand that basically pumps oil into something you can then dump in the tank.
I think you might misunderstand the mileage of these bikes and the capacity of the oil tank over a long period of riding.
When setup at stock my bike got roughly 34 miles to a gallon. I'd make it around 100 miles before needing to gas up. Oil consumption was roughly 1/4 of a tank of oil. Seems high, but that's about how much oil my bike used.
If I rode on a 200 mile one way rip, I'd have to bring an extra quart of oil just in case the tank ran too low.
Oil consumption on these bikes is actually pretty high from my experience. Could be my oil pump, but I've never had another one to compare it to.
Your consumption is pretty normal. On the 4L0 it approx 2 full tanks of fuel to 1 liter of 2t.
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Thats what I was thinking.
Backup plan is to spin weld on another larger ploy hose barb in the small ones place.
So original hose could still be stretched to fit. maybe 5/16" or 3/8"
Otherwise look at the babes, or scenery while getting oil.
I guess you could always blow in the vent line hose.
Unless you are building a lightweight or racing where weight can make a difference between winning and losing premix on a street bike is a PITA. I got a nice ball valve from M in SC and adapted it to fit on the oil tank on the original iteration of the Phoenix Project because I let someone talk me into it when my motor was built. It over oils the engine and makes refueling harder. The pumps when properly maintained are very reliable. It may happen tomorrow but I have been riding these bikes since they were new and I have never had a pump or lubrication related failure. Just my :twocents:
Street bike, pump all day. Track bike pre mix.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210422/3724fe80cea5ae0bd2658b0739d4069f.jpg)
I rode cross country on the pump. Carried a 5L jug of Motul and refilled it with good oil when I could find it.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210422/4da258f70ba6e1b5d42335e4ff07fea8.jpeg)
Now I beat the hell out of it, still on the pump.
The only time my pump "failed" was when I failed to refill the tank. Felt the engine start to seize, caught it before any real damage was done, refilled, primed, kept going. This was in the middle of nowhere outside Cody, Wyoming on the way to Oregon..
Take care of the pump, and it'll take care of you.
After all, it's the most lubricated part of the engine.
That's a great pic BTW!
Quote from: retaRD on April 22, 2021, 12:22:51 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210422/4da258f70ba6e1b5d42335e4ff07fea8.jpeg)
You should get that side stand moved before there is nothing left of it
Quote from: rodneya on April 22, 2021, 02:12:29 PM
You should get that side stand moved before there is nothing left of it
I've made changes since then. But you're right.
Nathan on my G3 a few yrs ago.
I went premix on my 76 RD400 because the throttle pull was annoying for me. Once I disconnected the pump and twisted the throttle it felt like butter and was easy as pie. I loved it so much I have been premix ever since.
Something's not right there... there isn't much tension on the pulley return.
Quote from: Czakky on April 26, 2021, 06:38:41 PM
Something's not right there... there isn't much tension on the pulley return.
I was thinking that too.
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As said before the mpg and oil consumption have a decent ratio that allows a decent range on the pump without having to mix. I decided to rebuild my pump as I run Amsoil Dominator and don't want to intermix if I don't have to. My RD sat for about 4 yrs, because life, so I don't remember the exact ratio. I think I could at least get 2-3 tanks of fuel to each tank of oil. Now with chambers and re-jet I might even get more tanks of fuel! LoL!