Ya'll probably remember me trying to pull that stuck cylinder.
Well it's be almost 3 months now. Every few days I would try to break it free.. grr :help:
I've done everything I can think of to get it to break loose.
Soaked, heated and beat it to death. But just won't come off the studs.
The crank, rods and piston is super free. It had actually good compression.was just wanting to putt new rings and gadkets on it..
I'm really ready to take my Sawzall to it!!! :rant-1:
I never once hit it on the head seal area. But this thing was beat there by somebody
air hammer on the studs. screw the head bolts on it first. that, and heat. just don't melt the aluminum.
Put it in a press and work it back and forth. It might not be pretty but it will move eventually.
id fill the stud holes with pb blaster and heat up the cylinder enough to basically get it to boil, at all 4. should loosen it up. otherwise...
drill the studs. side note, the liner top is the sealing surface
Quote from: m in sc on September 01, 2022, 09:29:51 PM
drill the studs. side note, the liner top is the sealing surface
:like:
If it hasn't moved at all, I think the rust just has nowhere to go and the heating isn't expanding the holes enough to slide by the rust. If the penetrant you're using has not dribbled out between the case and the cylinder base the rust is in there pretty solid. I'd take the engine apart so all that's left is the top half of the case and the stuck cylinder. The bottom of the cylinder liner is exposed and you can use an aluminum block and hammer on it directly, if carefully. Then I'd flip it upside down and clean the holes out with brake clean to get the penetrant out, flip it back over and fill them up with evaporust. Leave it for a day, pour it out and see if anything comes out. If so, repeat the process.
I recently took an R5 engine apart and the cylinders did not want to come off. They did move a little and I was able to work them up and down so the rust fell out of the bottom of the holes until they came off. I was surprised how much rust there was.
Quote from: rlgrantjr on September 04, 2022, 11:39:30 AM
If it hasn't moved at all, I think the rust just has nowhere to go and the heating isn't expanding the holes enough to slide by the rust. If the penetrant you're using has not dribbled out between the case and the cylinder base the rust is in there pretty solid. I'd take the engine apart so all that's left is the top half of the case and the stuck cylinder. The bottom of the cylinder liner is exposed and you can use an aluminum block and hammer on it directly, if carefully. Then I'd flip it upside down and clean the holes out with brake clean to get the penetrant out, flip it back over and fill them up with evaporust. Leave it for a day, pour it out and see if anything comes out. If so, repeat the process.
I recently took an R5 engine apart and the cylinders did not want to come off. They did move a little and I was able to work them up and down so the rust fell out of the bottom of the holes until they came off. I was surprised how much rust there was.
This is where I'm pretty much at I think.
I have tried to drilling but I'm afraid I'm gonna damage the liner/jug or case so I quit.
For my most recent war on a single, we used damn near boiling kerosene as a soaker and worked on getting a tiny bit of clearance at the base, then worked the crank back and forth "slapping" the cylinder on the base, semi vigorous but mostly just trying to use the mass/inertia of the cylinder to set up some vibration. Also, once we had clearance, we could sneak super hot kerosene on the underside as well.
If this is a total rebuild, drilling the piston could be an option, no? If its stuck on the studs, tho, maybe not useful.
I remember reading on an antique tractor board that an alternative method is to chuck the engine into a lake for a year or two, theory being that the water would slowly dissolve the rust and would not rust further since there is very little O2 available.
We did throw a dead quad motor under water for about 2 years and I was suprised that it came out looking better than it went in and there was plenty of oil/grease in the places you would want it. If there werent holes in the cases, it could have been dried, oiled and used.
YMMV and all that, dont believe everything you read on the internet:)
Coupla hours on a bridgeport mill. An endmill and center drill to keep centered. Left handed drill a little under stud size and a couple of those will screw out before you get to the bottom
A couple of plastic splitting wedges. One from the side under the intake flange. Tap it in tight. The second between the exhaust flange and motor mount bolt flange. Tap that one in real tight. Heat the cylinder and let it sit. Tap on the wedges every now and then to see if they work loose.
If that doesn't work, maybe a porta power with a spreader jaw between the exhaust and motor mount flange. Be careful with the porta power, you can apply more force then you realize.
It's not tensioned currently? I am seeing that right? There are studs but nothing holding the cylinder down other than friction?
By heat, I assume you mean a torch. If you do it in an oven @400 degrees for at least an hour it will kill seals, and that's where you drop sleeves out of jugs, but it will also separate the bond between stainless and aluminum, if that's the issue. Plus help release the piston if it's galled in there. Not sure where you are on limiting rebuild cost at this point.
Quote from: sav0r on September 05, 2022, 08:01:20 PM
It's not tensioned currently? I am seeing that right? There are studs but nothing holding the cylinder down other than friction?
That's correct. The piston is totally free to travel the length of the cylinder.
The head bolts were so rusted to the studs that I needed an impact to remove them.
This why I see the press as probably the best bet. You might bend the fins up, but if you can get it rock back and forth it will break the bond at the cylinder bottom and maybe break up some of the rust on the studs. Steel expands at a factor of 10:1 to completely degrade when rusting. So those studs are really large, but not particularly dense. Yes, the piston skirt extends into the case, but a little bit of rocking should be tolerated. It doesn't sound like much fun, but I bet it would get the job done. Once some movement is made it will get a lot easier.
Since we are looking at an RD or R5/DS7, what about splitting the cases, so one could tap the liner from the bottom? Maybe machine a brass flange to act as a punch.
Or make some kind of a hook shaped extension to a sliding hammer, and pull on the ports? Surely better than trying to push/hit on cooling ribs
That was my other thought. Split the cases and drop the crank, then you should be able to press the cylinders out from the bottom?
could tap the cyls at the holes, use a long bolt and push the jugs off the studs like the triple guys do. :twocents:
That would be pretty easy.
So..
The dropping the cases is a dead end.
The piston in the stuck cylinder can't exit the case backwards.
Just too big by a bit. I guess that's why those stroked motors need the cases opened up.
So tomorrow this thing is going into the oven.. lets see what 500 degrees does for it.
500 degrees is too hot.
It's not much of a parts donor. My suggestion is cut the rod, drill many many many holes through the top of the piston,turn it over and clamp the cylinder down on something solid, and have at 'er with a hammer and chisel. The trick is to get the wrist pin broken out, the rest is easy.
Scott, do like Mark suggested, they will come loose. Put pressure on, put a rust buster in the holes, and every so often add a bit more pressure. Pulled a couple over the years like that.
Quote from: m in sc on September 07, 2022, 08:46:30 AM
could tap the cyls at the holes, use a long bolt and push the jugs off the studs like the triple guys do. :twocents:
He's right you know.
That is how I had to remove a monoblock GT750 cylinder that was rusted onto the studs. Take your time and after you get it to move slightly, remove the tap or bolts and hit it back down with a rubber mallet. Rinse and repeat. Apply more heat and penetrating oil until the kitchen and workshop stink and it comes loose.
Do it when the SO is out for a couple of days and have the fans working overtime. :whistle:
So now I'm unscrewed.. kinda.
So I tried all the things .. except Mark's idea about tapping the stud holes.
In the end I used a torch and burned out all the bottom gasket then used a roofing scraper to dig out all of it leaving enough of a gap to stick a metal wedge in there. I pounded it in enough to allow me..
.. sorry boys..excuse me boys. :whistle:
enoughroom to puta Sawzall blade in and cut off the frozen studs.
hm. what exactly were you planning on saving off this motor again??
Unorthodox for sure but to be honest it did no damage.
A little massaging and it will clean up good.
Gasket sealing areas are untouched for the most part.
My main desire was to salvage the case and liner.
The liner bores measure out at stock and the pistons and bores are in real nice condition.
I know this is a little cave man for you guys but it worked.
If it worked, it was the best plan.
and thats all that matters. :olaf:
If one has to resort to using wedges, maybe plastic wedges like you use when cutting down trees could work? Stihl (chainsaw brand) definitely sell those wedges as well.
And, more related to this topic, in a Norwegian FB group for vintage/ classic japanese motorcycles, there is a Suzuki GT750 owner with this exact problem. Cylinder block won't budge at all.
Any specific tips or tricks for getting a "water buffalo" cylinder block unstuck?
I was thinking, maybe the studs could be drilled out? I see that the GT has similar "pipe nuts" to the RD head nuts. So If one could turn up some drill guides that are a nice tight slip fit in the counterbore, then drill out the entire length of the rusty studs through this guide. Surely, this must be doable. But this will also present another challenge when the remaining threaded part of the studs are to be removed.
http://www.medial.se/suzuki/cyl-removal/
this is the method I was referring to. :cheers:
I am pretty sure there is somebody on the GT750 facebook group that loans their puller out.
GT750 can stick like sh*t to a blanket. Heat, penetrating oil and patience work. And the key trick is to lift it a little, loosen the lift nuts/bolts and smack the barrel back down with a B.F. rubber mallet. Rinse and repeat to break it loose.
I recall that form a decade or so ago. Not sure who it was or if that's still available.
Here's my next patient on the rusted stuck cylinder line.
My 71 RT1 360.
This one I dragged from the weeds behind a fallen down shed. I gave 50 bucks for it. Guy said it was his dad's and was parked there long before he was born.
Stuck piston(hoping that's all) .. been soaking in evaporust about 3 weeks now.
I've wondered how effective Evapo-rust or phosphoric acid can be in the scenario, since both create a chemical reaction that converts the metal instead of eating it away.
I got lucky with a Bighorn I sold this summer. It had been sitting in a North Carolina yard for God knows how long. Managed to unstick the piston and get it running within a day. Funny how it works with 2 strokes. It's either stuck like your experiencing, or it's like I experienced with the Bighorn. Very little in-between.
Quote from: m in sc on September 11, 2022, 02:22:06 PM
http://www.medial.se/suzuki/cyl-removal/
this is the method I was referring to. :cheers:
Thanks! I just sent the link to the guy that struggles with his GT
Look Up GT750Idiot on Youtube and he has a plate he uses on the GT750's. Has done countless bikes using the massive puller plate without issue.
Quote from: irk_miller on September 12, 2022, 05:52:07 AM
I've wondered how effective Evapo-rust or phosphoric acid can be in the scenario, since both create a chemical reaction that converts the metal instead of eating it away.
I got lucky with a Bighorn I sold this summer. It had been sitting in a North Carolina yard for God knows how long. Managed to unstick the piston and get it running within a day. Funny how it works with 2 strokes. It's either stuck like your experiencing, or it's like I experienced with the Bighorn. Very little in-between.
To be honest I'm not impressed with EVAPORUST as a penetrant though as a rust remover it does very well and is nowhere as caustic as muratic acid.
I think the homebrew acetone/atf mix is as effective as a penetrant if not more so.
I find that it is a case of cast iron against steel or cast iron such as in the case of these two engines. The R5 studs rusting solid to the cast iron cylinder and the RT1 cast iron piston rings to the liner and the environment they are in. If either has been inside and out of the weather even if they were stuck I think getting them to break free would have been much easier.
The fact that they were exposed to constant wet conditions made the corrosion much more extreme.
A penetrant of any value would be much more effective in the former vs the latter.
Quote from: Striker1423 on September 12, 2022, 10:46:59 AM
Look Up GT750Idiot on Youtube and he has a plate he uses on the GT750's. Has done countless bikes using the massive puller plate without issue.
I wonder if that plate method would work on a RD type motor by using two studs to bolt the plate down, and the other two to lift the cylinder.
Has anyone tried hitting the top of the piston with a needle gun? The vibration is pretty substantial. It would cup the top of the piston, but rust turns to dust under heavy vibration. It's the 10X expansion that's the issue, which puts everything under intense pressure. I'm sure we've all seen rust jacking in masonry and concrete. Takes a lot of pressure to pop concrete.
I still recommend a regular mechanics air hammer. Makes short work of rusty crap...
needle guns are gnarly tools but they work great. the do vibrate the shit out of some crud.
Quote from: rodneya on September 12, 2022, 02:45:57 PM
Quote from: Striker1423 on September 12, 2022, 10:46:59 AM
Look Up GT750Idiot on Youtube and he has a plate he uses on the GT750's. Has done countless bikes using the massive puller plate without issue.
I wonder if that plate method would work on a RD type motor by using two studs to bolt the plate down, and the other two to lift the cylinder.
How would you attach the cylinder to a plate? Since all 4 studs (per cylinder) are threaded into the crankcase.
Good point... you would need to tap the bolt holes on the cylinder a few threads... a plate wouldn't really be needed then.