Installing a vape system. The instructions say to bring one piston to TDC, then to adjust the rotor per instructions and tighten.
I read and seen a video in which the piston was brought up 1.8 BTDC. Can anyone advice me on which it is?
Also, not sure the best way to torque the rotor. No torque spec were given in the instructions. I was just going to use a impact driver to torque the bolt down.???
Thanks in advance.
1: get a VERY thick washer. 2: heat the rotor up in an oven to about 225 degrees (yes im serious). 3: set the crank where you want it to fire, it will fire when the leading edge of the ramp on the rotor is about halfway across the pickup button, maybe a hair before. 4: get the rotor with oven mints and set it on the crank end, tap it on lightly with a dead blow mallet or rubber mallet. 5: zap the nut down with an impact, but don't go too crazy
verify timing with timing light.
Quote from: m in sc on April 23, 2023, 03:24:29 PM
1: get a VERY thick washer. 2: heat the rotor up in an oven to about 225 degrees (yes im serious). 3: set the crank where you want it to fire, it will fire when the leading edge of the ramp on the rotor is about halfway across the pickup button, maybe a hair before. 4: get the rotor with oven mints and set it on the crank end, tap it on lightly with a dead blow mallet or rubber mallet. 5: zap the nut down with an impact, but don't go too crazy
verify timing with timing light.
Thanks Mark!
The vape that I have that comes with the curve box is setup at TDC.
Quote from: m in sc on April 23, 2023, 03:24:29 PM
1: get a VERY thick washer. 2: heat the rotor up in an oven to about 225 degrees (yes im serious). 3: set ....
verify timing with timing light.
I have to respectfully disagree.
Two things you never want to do to a permanent magnet is heat them up or hit them with a hammer. Both will decrease the magnetism.
You Do want to lap the rotor onto the shaft. Clean everything, put some valve grinding compound on the taper, loosely install the rotor and twist it back and forth for 20 minutes, rotating and progressively pressing harder as you go. When you install the rotor, block the crank by ramming something (a penny, a piece of aluminum, an oily rag) in the primary gears, and you'll have to hold the rotor. 50-60# is lots.
And NEVER use an impact on a shaft with a precision bearing.
If the instructions of your Vape system doesn't specify that it has a timing advance built in, I would assume you have to set it to 1.8 before to get 1.8 timing.... otherwise the instructions would say if you set it at zero, you'll get 1.8. (1.8 is more than enough for modern gas)
I've done this at this point dozens of times. you are nowhere near demagnetizing at 220 degrees, it has to be close to 400. Im still running the unit from 2007 that i've pulled on and off a few times, zero issues. also, theres a slight interference with a taper fit, you can't reliably lap it by hand, sorry. Ive seen people do it and work, but I've never had the need to do it, and im currently running 4 of these systems. and a dead blow/rubber mallet will not shock it, there's a reason i said that.
Yes, if you cooked it at like 450 degrees for an hour and then went smacking the side of it with a ball peen hammer, yeah, issues. this isnt that. :twocents:
The taper is what sets the rotor. You don't lap an interference fit. If they did that to snowmobiles you'd have thousands of them with stripped crank ends and sloppy clutches.
Quote from: bitzz on April 23, 2023, 10:04:37 PM
Quote from: m in sc on April 23, 2023, 03:24:29 PM
1: get a VERY thick washer. 2: heat the rotor up in an oven to about 225 degrees (yes im serious). 3: set ....
verify timing with timing light.
I have to respectfully disagree.
Two things you never want to do to a permanent magnet is heat them up or hit them with a hammer. Both will decrease the magnetism.
You Do want to lap the rotor onto the shaft. Clean everything, put some valve grinding compound on the taper, loosely install the rotor and twist it back and forth for 20 minutes, rotating and progressively pressing harder as you go. When you install the rotor, block the crank by ramming something (a penny, a piece of aluminum, an oily rag) in the primary gears, and you'll have to hold the rotor. 50-60# is lots.
And NEVER use an impact on a shaft with a precision bearing.
If the instructions of your Vape system doesn't specify that it has a timing advance built in, I would assume you have to set it to 1.8 before to get 1.8 timing.... otherwise the instructions would say if you set it at zero, you'll get 1.8. (1.8 is more than enough for modern gas)
Rotors, bldc motors, etc typically
start to lose their magnetism at 170 degrees celsius. As long as you keep temps below that number you are fine. In general, steel expands 3/16" between ambient temp and forging temp.
I would also recommend getting the rotor screw set that Economy sells separately for the Vape kits. They come with a longer screw and a better washer, so they'll be sure to keep it from moving.
as others have said get some upgraded hardware (see below)
4.5mm thick washer, longer bolt
Measure the depth to make sure the bolt isn't too long and bottoming out
torque to 20 ft/lbs (dry)
(https://www.economycycle.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/DSC00727-e1552850510623.jpg)
https://www.economycycle.com/shop/yamaha-rd250350400r5ds6ds7-parts/electrical-ignitions-lighting/ignition/mzb-cdi-electronic-igntion-for-yamaha-rd250350400r5ds6ds7-street-version-hardware-upgrade/
170 degrees celsius is 338°F so way lower than 220f.
How about using Loctite green?
sleeving loctite is ok... ive used it. but NOT fun to deal with if/when you have to remove and reinstall. ask how i know. lol. i gave that up on this application for that very reason. but if oyu are 100% sure its right and will be on for a VERY long time, sure.
Easier to freeze the shaft with ether. And a wee bit heat to the rotor, where I can still handle with a little discomfort.
Either way I am guilty of using the rubber dead blow ,has not been a problem .
ive cooled the shaft as well, only thing i didn't like about it, in a humid environment, is it can sweat and eventually cause droplets and rust. but, ive done it as well.
Quote from: rodneya on April 23, 2023, 09:40:05 PM
The vape that I have that comes with the curve box is setup at TDC.
I sent 2 pics of the instructions. I guess I need to set at TDC.
rodneya-were your instructions identical to mine? And did you set your vape system per the instructions that are in the pics. I ask that because I saw a least one video of a guy in England who set his at 1.8 BTDC. So I am a little confused.
Also, what curve from the advance unit are you using? Thanks!
To economy cycle and others who recommenced the thicker washer and longer bolt. Thank you. I did have that already.
Thanks again to everyone who chimed in with advice!
My Vape has a completely different rotor and different instructions. Might want to make sure you are watching videos of the same systems.
This is my RD setup:
https://www.powerdynamo.biz/eng/systems/7105/7105inst.php
ah, ive never fooled with the ones w the built in curves, always ran a zeel box or a static one. I didnt think they sold those anymore w the integrated curves?
Quote from: Aloha808 on April 25, 2023, 06:15:50 PM
Quote from: rodneya on April 23, 2023, 09:40:05 PM
The vape that I have that comes with the curve box is setup at TDC.
I sent 2 pics of the instructions. I guess I need to set at TDC.
rodneya-were your instructions identical to mine? And did you set your vape system per the instructions that are in the pics. I ask that because I saw a least one video of a guy in England who set his at 1.8 BTDC. So I am a little confused.
Also, what curve from the advance unit are you using? Thanks!
To economy cycle and others who recommenced the thicker washer and longer bolt. Thank you. I did have that already.
Thanks again to everyone who chimed in with advice!
Pretty sure my instructions were the same. I set it up quite a while back, and then that motor ended up on a shelf as it was replaced with a RZ/ Banshee setup
I had set mine to curve 2
To clear up, the first pic is the kit with the curve box. This one is set to TDC (I dont know if anybody local sells this one anymore, so its probably order direct from Vape)
The second pic is the standard static timing kit. This one is set to 1.8mm or whatever you decide to use.
Vape no longer sells the curve box kit for full bikes. I think it is a part of their racing ignition kit.
Quote from: Striker1423 on April 26, 2023, 10:23:08 AM
Vape no longer sells the curve box kit for full bikes. I think it is a part of their racing ignition kit.
https://www.vape.eu/en/yamaha-rd350400-pre-ignition-screw (https://www.vape.eu/en/yamaha-rd350400-pre-ignition-screw)
https://www.vape.eu/en/yamaha-rd350400-advance--retard-control-long-shaft (https://www.vape.eu/en/yamaha-rd350400-advance--retard-control-long-shaft)
Its still for sale on their website.
There was an old post where Economy Cycle mentioned they stopped selling them because there were some issues with them.
@rodneya-Thanks for the pics. I have the system in the top picture. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
I guess I should of given more information about the system I am using. First of all, I thought powerdynamo/vape systems were the same thing. I guess there are different versions.
I bought my powerdynamo/vape from economy cycle about 5+ years ago. Along with the thicker washer and longer bolt. I had a guy install it. Since then I had the engine rebuilt and now I trying to put it back together. Hence the questions at the beginning of the thread.
Thanks
I think this is the curve Yamaha used on the non-US 400 CDI models. I added the mm btdc at the different rpm.
(https://i.ibb.co/PMrKvNj/curve.jpg) (https://ibb.co/T1w6xk2)