I started this morning by harvesting some parts from one of the donors, including the front brake caliper I intend to use. Before I crack this thing apart, I'd like to know that I can source replacement parts...
(https://i.postimg.cc/v8cNhHd7/image.jpg)
Does anyone recognize this Brembo? I can tell you it was non-standard fitment on an '83 TZ250K.
(https://i.postimg.cc/xjhF4D0w/image.jpg)
Any recommendations for a replacement parts source?
Thanks, Wade
Looks like a P108 fitted to some Paso's.
38mm pistons are probably the same as an F08 which were really common.
Excellent, thank you
Wade
It came apart nicely and looks a little better after a trip through the parts washer.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Vv861VRR/image.jpg)
The bores look nice below the piston seal, but there's a little corrosion above the seal (nearer the pad).
(https://i.postimg.cc/DzR0pZ4R/image.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/G2Y2WCkt/image.jpg)
I found pistons and seal kits nicely priced at oppracing. In the meantime, more cleaning and I may pop the other caliper apart to see how it's condition compares.
Wade
These are 38mm pistons (two per caliper) and I'm leaning towards taking the advice to use one caliper. So, referring to the chart Mr. Quenzler provided in Daytona Z's thread "Daytona Special dual disk..." and using his preferred ratio, I'm looking for a master cylinder of 11mm bore diameter. There are a bunch out there, thankfully, and not terribly expensive...but you know how you like what you like? I like remote reservoirs. It's probably related to my age :umm:
This is the part where someone replies: "I'll sell you an identifiable name-brand 11mm remote reservoir front master cylinder for peanuts." In the meantime, I'll be searching.
Wade
:whistle:
Well, my research led me to an Aprilia RS125 front master cylinder made by Grimeca. Tough to find, except for a German seller on eBay with a dozen or so. Made an offer, they accepted, I second-guessed my decision...oh well. Levers are available ($$$), rebuild kits not. Found a reference somewhere to Grimeca closing its doors, which would explain the latter :whoop:
Found a new lever tonight on eBay from a UK seller and pulled the trigger; half the going price including shipping! Must be too good to be true.
:blah: received rebuild kit and pistons for the Brembo caliper from OPP, so WHEN the master cylinder parts arrive from afar and IF the cylinder makes pressure, I should have a nice front brake system. Note to self: no eBay after 9:00 p.m.
Wade
Front master cylinder arrived today, and although it doesn't say much for my research skills, I am happy to see it is a Brembo rather than a Grimeca. Finding a kit just got easier.
Wade
Lever landed on my bench today, and it's a peach. Fits the master cylinder, and I'm working on a pivot bolt.
Quote from: 85RZwade on February 11, 2020, 01:15:06 AM
Lever landed on my bench today, and it's a peach. Fits the master cylinder, and I'm working on a pivot bolt.
How about the rest of the bike............got any pics?
Point taken! Not much is assembled yet, but here's the plan: start with this '75 RD350
(https://i.postimg.cc/V67k4w8G/39-CC04-C9-7-D3-D-43-EE-92-C0-6283059717-EC.jpg)
and update it...at least a decade or so, with a water-cooled '82 RD350LC engine
(https://i.postimg.cc/zGMw2mJf/C5-B34-E85-86-E3-4046-80-C9-B29-EADEA8735.jpg)
and suspension and brakes from an '83 TZ250K
(https://i.postimg.cc/mZKQ64Rg/image.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/3N0xDzbL/image.jpg)
I'm using a single disc up front, so I removed one from the wheel
(https://i.postimg.cc/zXxFWb6K/3-C9-FDFDA-A146-4-C33-9838-EBE2-FA693-CF3.jpg)
I was surprised how heavy the discs were: 5.23 lbs solid, 4.73 lbs drilled. Drilled disc it is, then! This bike came to me with the Brembo 2-piston calipers above, so I'll make one out of the best parts and the new pistons and seal kit. Here's the Brembo master cylinder and lever
(https://i.postimg.cc/nhMY1Vf5/8-A7-C117-E-6-BBF-4429-A04-F-56-AFE6-CAFCF3.jpg)
Hopefully the braided brake line can be reused, but we'll see if everything lines up correctly.
Looks like you have a good start. I'll give you a pointer on using that LC engine in the RD frame. Im assuming you will be rebuilding the bottom end so it will be split and it needs to be to do this anyway. You can take an AC bottom case half and an LC top case half and bolt them together. You can then put that in the AC frame and the bottom front and bottom rear mounts will properly align the engine while you fab mounts for the LC engine since they are mounted by the top case half only. Once you have those mounts fabbed you can put the assembled LC cases in the frame and cut away the unneeded mounts from the AC engine and also fab mounts for the tie bars if you plan on using them. This is how I did mine since I am using an LC bottom end in a TR3 frame (same mounts as an RD).
Awesome, thanks for the tip. I haven't looked closely enough yet to know if I'll be able to mimic the TZ rear engine mount:
(https://i.postimg.cc/JhgGsPvB/Motor-mounts-3.jpg)
It might be hard to see in this crappy picture, but the rear engine mount is concentric with the swingarm pivot. If it doesn't conflict with the AC frame, I'll fab one suitable for the LC cases. I think. :umm:
Next time I'm out in the shop I'll take some pics of my mounts and post them.
I have a "new" set of DG expansion chambers...they were inexpensive once upon a time, on close out when I worked at a Yamaha dealer. I don't love them, but I own them, so they might go on, but before possibly modifying them to fit (that's a lot of commas), are pipes designed for an air-cooled 350 suitable for the liquid-cooled 350? Kinda leaning towards selling the DGs off to help finance something sexier.
A) thank you for the help, Joe. I've thought a lot about making the rear mounts, but your solution is elegant, simple and foolproof.
B) sorry to jump back and forth, but here's a better shot of the TZ rear mount, removed from it's natural habitat. It's designed to bolt to both the upper and lower case halves, and since the LC lacks a mounting point on it's lower half, I don't feel this is a good solution for me. Any mechanical engineers out there?
(https://i.postimg.cc/W16FrQhK/image.jpg)
Take a breath...calm, calm...belong.
Wade
Cool pics of the progress on your project. The combination of your components is presenting a slight challenge for you, but looks like you got it under control. The finished bike will bring a bigger smile upon completion.
Russ
:thumbs: thanks Russ!
Quote from: Jspooner on February 11, 2020, 10:25:49 PM
Next time I'm out in the shop I'll take some pics of my mounts and post them.
Wade,
Here's a few pics of the mounts I made. I couldn't get any of the tie bars without removing the pipes. The front is basically just spacers. The upper rear is a hanger type mount.
Thanks for the effort, Joe. I appreciate your time and input. For some reason I'd like to make use of the TZ rear mount, but I can't see any advantage to it over your solution. :clap:
Your rear mount is really tidy; was it machined from billet? I would have to weld somethings up, as nothing in my barn says Bridgeport on it :'(
Quote from: 85RZwade on February 13, 2020, 09:19:16 AM
Thanks for the effort, Joe. I appreciate your time and input. For some reason I'd like to make use of the TZ rear mount, but I can't see any advantage to it over your solution. :clap:
Your rear mount is really tidy; was it machined from billet? I would have to weld somethings up, as nothing in my barn says Bridgeport on it :'(
Thanks, and yes, I machined it out of billet.
does anything say 'miller' or 'lincoln' on it? :science:
I have never seen a TZ rear mount that looks like that. The TZ only has one set of mounting holes on the back, like a RD. I just checked a TR3, a TZ "B" and a TZ "G", all mount the same as an RD.
The TZ didn't use the top mount either. It was found the vibration would crack the cases around the mount, so after the "B" model there was a service bulletin to scrap that mount. I leave them off RD400 racers with no problems.
An upgrade that WAS/IS done to TZ frames is to rubber mount the motor. The TZ has rubber mounts on the front like a RD400 (a 350 doesn't), but we add rubber mounts to the rear. The frames don't crack nearly as often with this upgrade.
... and if you plan on racing this thing I suggest you use a floating rotor. AHMRA/VRRA class legal and they last a LOT longer before warping.
pretty sure joe used lc cases/tz topend.
Quote from: m in sc on February 13, 2020, 11:11:09 AM
pretty sure joe used lc cases/tz topend.
Correct, ^^^^^ but I'm thinking Jim is referring to the mount that Wade wants to use.
There's a Miller at work, and oxy-acetylene here at home.
The '81 H model TZ was a new design and shared no significant parts with preceding TZs or RDs, hence the different mounts.
As I mentioned elsewhere, I've cleared some bench space and improved my work area lighting. Next step is to yank the Elsie engine out and get it onto said bench for disassembly and evaluation. I assume the crank will need some attention, and maybe the cylinders. The sequence of events I imagine is:
Have crank rebuilt if viable and cylinders bored if necessary
Gather seals, gaskets, pistons, etc.
Mate LC top case with AC bottom case to establish engine mounts as Mr. Spooner recommended
Decide if any port work is to be done. I'll be penny less at this point, so...
Assemble bottom and top ends, measure squish clearance
Decide what to do with cylinder head. Probably sell a kidney.
Am I forgetting anything important in the above process?
Elsie gave up her engine this evening,without much drama. Oil was dark and nasty, but not glittery, and coolant was clean, clear and bright.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bNmmMhWs/image.jpg)
Landed on the bench in the clean room :bs:pretty little thing she is not.
(https://i.postimg.cc/d3vWMtJT/image.jpg)
Giant sigh of relief. Couldn't ask for nicer looking crowns or domes. Does the head look uncut?
(https://i.postimg.cc/9QzLHkH1/image.jpg)
Someone's been here before me...
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZncwJtqs/image.jpg)
And did a little tentative cutting in the transfers. What other surprises lurk within?
(https://i.postimg.cc/fLYHg0QN/image.jpg)
Intakes appear unmolested, but that far cylinder wall isn't happy; yes, I can feel those scratches with a fingernail.
(https://i.postimg.cc/TPz79JS0/image.jpg)
Exhaust port looks unmodified to my untrained eye...what do the LC experts think? Vesrah!
(https://i.postimg.cc/kMF1Q8yN/image.jpg)
And then there are these boys. I think they've been up and down a few times. Dykes top ring. Are they OEM? Doesn't matter, they're being relieved of duty.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fTzHBLHG/image.jpg)
Good job men, you may stand down :patriot:
The good news is that the engine looks a lot better inside than out. I'll drop a bore guage in the cylinders next to see if they've met the boring bar yet, then continue with the teardown. Until next time, thanks for stopping by!
Cylinders measured 64.2 mm just about everywhere this morning, which was nice to see. Makes me wonder why the cylinders came off before...? Regular maintenance? :eek:
Clean up the top of the pistons and have a look whats stamped on them. The one looks like it has a 25 on top, so could be is over.
Dyke rings, so they have probably been in there for a very long time
I'm going to claim "up too late working on the bike". Upon THIRD look yes, both pistons are .25 over as your sharp eyes noticed.
id def consider refreshing the pistons/cyls for piece of mind. otherwise looks like a good donor motor for sure. :cheerleader:
Oh, yes. New pistons without question, if the bores clean up with a hone I'll be over the moon. Otherwise they'll be off to meet Garrett. The crankshaft LOOKS lovely, but we'll see how it measures. New main bearings and seals at the very least.
I have a great vapor blasting hookup here in Portland if you want to make that engine look like new.
I'm thinking a trip to Portland is sounding good; I'd like to meet you, and I was just admiring the stuff from GFTP. Drop off parts with Garrett, have some stuff vapor blasted, look at fiberglass...hold on, my VISA card just caught fire inside my wallet.
Let me get this lump apart and figure out what other parts to do and I'll make a plan. Maybe this would be a candidate once the chain rash is healed...but then what? That alodine that 27cycles used was interesting.
(https://i.postimg.cc/LXp2JN7f/image.jpg)
Swingarm and fork legs sorta copper-colored...maybe that would be too much color.
Incremental progress last night on the LC teardown. No big problems, but a few wee 'uns:
(https://i.postimg.cc/D0KLbx9H/3-DEB6862-064-A-402-C-BC1-B-E541-B254-C3-D6.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/vBn5BJN5/4-A030-F3-D-2-CB0-49-BC-BB2-B-751482-D5-C6-DF.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/rsCWGScm/0-A06-C046-C9-ED-4015-880-C-0-B4-BE6356-F04.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/zXxHJDG9/1426921-A-D631-41-BC-9372-7680-A4187-ABF.jpg)
Water pump shaft is worse than it looks
(https://i.postimg.cc/0NMwXgxh/A80-EC90-E-3-FCA-4-E98-A9-E6-C969-BFF9-E98-C.jpg)
As is the clutch pushrod
(https://i.postimg.cc/qB88ddnT/A77-ED2-D3-9-C57-4-F03-A414-302-D455-C94-CF.jpg)
Yikes!
(https://i.postimg.cc/9QXPpNDj/1-F98-C735-B034-4478-ACF6-D970-B1-DACB63.jpg)
Notches are worse in person than they look
(https://i.postimg.cc/TPpV8Lj7/52-C214-F8-EFAA-450-B-AC38-F119-C32972-EE.jpg)
But this will be better!
Gears look good overall but there's a bit of rust down in the valleys of the kickstart idler. Since it doesn't spin very fast or often I probably won't worry about it. The oddest thing was this:
(https://i.postimg.cc/m2B7L6NF/8-D206-EC2-B7-DF-453-B-B227-621-F45231-F03.jpg)
I couldn't remember ever seeing a red clutch cover gasket, yet that's the only gasket on the clutch side of the engine, right? tacky1, a member over at the RZ/RD500 site identified it I believe correctly as the gasket inside the clutch. Who sells that gasket? Maybe one of the aftermarket clutch vendors? It's been awhile since I replaced a clutch basket, maybe the gasket gets discarded...more research!
Be well, friends 8)
oh yeh. I want to run that clutch setup. Bittersweet working on engines sometimes, satisfaction of doing it yourself, and then the reality of $$$$$ when you see condition of certain components. :clap: :clap:
Russ
that gasket is a new one on me.
I hear you, Russ. Gaskets, seals, pistons, bearings, clutch parts all add up, and then of course there's the cost of machine work. In my view, crank service is a must; I would not drop a used crankshaft back in unless a machinist measured it and deemed it serviceable, and boring the same. The consequences are just too expensive and potentially dangerous, so I may forego portiing and headwork on this build in order to get it together and running.
Well it did not get that way overnight, soooo it goes back together at a moderate pace. Riding it and having a before and after porting will be fun. :vroom: This hobby is such a character building one, and helps with patience :bang: :whistle:
:agree:
Quote from: 85RZwade on March 22, 2020, 08:52:57 PM
I hear you, Russ. Gaskets, seals, pistons, bearings, clutch parts all add up, and then of course there's the cost of machine work. In my view, crank service is a must; I would not drop a used crankshaft back in unless a machinist measured it and deemed it serviceable, and boring the same. The consequences are just too expensive and potentially dangerous, so I may forego portiing and headwork on this build in order to get it together and running.
It's true. Nothing better for motivation than hearing it run
You can always go back in for tuning next winter
Quote from: 85RZwade on March 21, 2020, 10:46:25 AM
(https://i.postimg.cc/qB88ddnT/A77-ED2-D3-9-C57-4-F03-A414-302-D455-C94-CF.jpg)
Yikes!
(https://i.postimg.cc/9QXPpNDj/1-F98-C735-B034-4478-ACF6-D970-B1-DACB63.jpg)
Notches are worse in person than they look
(https://i.postimg.cc/TPpV8Lj7/52-C214-F8-EFAA-450-B-AC38-F119-C32972-EE.jpg)
But this will be better!
Gears look good overall but there's a bit of rust down in the valleys of the kickstart idler. Since it doesn't spin very fast or often I probably won't worry about it. The oddest thing was this:
(https://i.postimg.cc/m2B7L6NF/8-D206-EC2-B7-DF-453-B-B227-621-F45231-F03.jpg)
I couldn't remember ever seeing a red clutch cover gasket, yet that's the only gasket on the clutch side of the engine, right? tacky1, a member over at the RZ/RD500 site identified it I believe correctly as the gasket inside the clutch. Who sells that gasket? Maybe one of the aftermarket clutch vendors? It's been awhile since I replaced a clutch basket, maybe the gasket gets discarded...more research!
Be well, friends 8)
Aftermarket baskets usually dint use the gasket from the stocker
That's odd. Where does that gasket sit and what's it's purpose? Looks like it sits between the gear and the basket, but I have stripped a couple of RD350 clutches recently and no sign of a gasket when I replaced the cush drive rubbers
I know Banshees have them. They go between the gear and stock basket probably to stop metal on metal contact. Some people call them grabber gaskets.
Split the cases this weekend...
(https://i.postimg.cc/mkvCBD27/image.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/mDhH9MPQ/image.jpg)
No bad news, other than the sludge in the sump.
(https://i.postimg.cc/DwdL37Vb/image.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/W45ZtS1N/image.jpg)
Really happy to see the forks in good shape! A little more disassembly and it's bath time
(https://i.postimg.cc/MZrr0L7J/750tank3.jpg)
I'm going to need to carry fuel on this machine, and I have this fine SOHC CB750 unit. It seems to sit reasonably well on the frame, but it's kind of, well...BIG. I could look forward to long rides w/o stopping for gas! Thoughts?
Quote from: 85RZwade on March 31, 2020, 09:33:55 AM
(https://i.postimg.cc/MZrr0L7J/750tank3.jpg)
I'm going to need to carry fuel on this machine, and I have this fine SOHC CB750 unit. It seems to sit reasonably well on the frame, but it's kind of, well...BIG. I could look forward to long rides w/o stopping for gas! Thoughts?
Well........if you want a Honda CB750 gas tank on your TZ replica then go for it :umm:
Hey Wade, just jumped on to your build thread....nice work so far...along similar lines to my own Suzonda project in that a classic frame is engine swapped with modernised running gear :) the term 'great minds' echoes in my head.
Re: the tank....let's see it on the frame to scale it.....it all depends on what you're trying to achieve as the end result....a bitsa or replica, like Spoony stated I guess?
That Honda tank looks short and fat.
I think a longer, leaner tank might fit the chassis a bit better?
You're all correct, thank you. I'm all for the bitsa, use-what-you've-got approach, and the 750 tank is on hand...but I don't like it for this project either. I agree with Jim that a longer, TD2-style tank would be more fitting. I also do not want to copy anyone else's ride too closely (Joe, Mark). I'm wary of any old tank, and of the new tanks out of India, having seen the video of the Indian tank cut open. Love the GFTP stuff, but I need to find a more affordable option than new fiberglass.
I'm toying with the idea of making my own seat unit of fiberglass and have a shape in mind, which might influence the shape of the fuel tank I use. I'll keep looking...anybody want to buy a CB750 tank?
Quote from: 85RZwade on April 01, 2020, 01:02:45 AM
You're all correct, thank you. I'm all for the bitsa, use-what-you've-got approach, and the 750 tank is on hand...but I don't like it for this project either. I agree with Jim that a longer, TD2-style tank would be more fitting. I also do not want to copy anyone else's ride too closely (Joe, Mark). I'm wary of any old tank, and of the new tanks out of India, having seen the video of the Indian tank cut open. Love the GFTP stuff, but I need to find a more affordable option than new fiberglass.
I'm toying with the idea of making my own seat unit of fiberglass and have a shape in mind, which might influence the shape of the fuel tank I use. I'll keep looking...anybody want to buy a CB750 tank?
Don't worry about copying my bike. There are other tanks that will fit and look decent. Not sure of the year but the XS500 (76-78? I think) had a coffin style tank that looks decent, also the XS360 was similar, maybe even the same tank for all I know. If it were me I would not use that CB tank on anything.
yeah. that cb tank = bulbous.
Yep, a "spoon" full of smart ass remarks is just what the Dr. ordered. :clap: We are here to help in the most polite way possible.
PC correctness be damned.
That CB tank belongs on a CB cause it is trying to cover over 4 cylinders instead of 2.
I don't think that tank looks short and fat, it is just big boned. :eek:
P.S. Good luck trying to copy Spooner's Hybrid. That Picasso is a piece of rolling,wheeling, hauling ass work of art. :vroom:
Yes, please use the TZ/TD etc. style of tank.
Someone put CBX250 bodywork on RD looks good. being so close to Canada might be able to find some cheap. --- (https://i.imgur.com/61tMVFU.jpg)
^ That does look good.
Hopefully by the time you'll be needing a tank, the current "situation" will have loaned up and you can hit the breakers and see what's available for cheap.
These guys are right by me: https://www.cycleheap.com/ I can get you in there to poke around. 👍
:wave:The people have spoken, I will remove the CB tank immediately (it's just sitting on the RD frame trying to look better). Thanks for the advice, opinions and encouragement, gents. Going to have to spend a day in Portland with Jim...someday, when I can cross the river again.
I found the perfect tank already!
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Yamaha-XS360-XS400-Fuel-Tank-XS-360-400-Gas-Tank/114164455613?hash=item1a94bb58bd:g:7r4AAOSwIlBeg4QY (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Yamaha-XS360-XS400-Fuel-Tank-XS-360-400-Gas-Tank/114164455613?hash=item1a94bb58bd:g:7r4AAOSwIlBeg4QY)
Have I mentioned that I work at a JD dealership?
Quote from: 85RZwade on April 01, 2020, 09:06:45 PM
I found the perfect tank already!
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Yamaha-XS360-XS400-Fuel-Tank-XS-360-400-Gas-Tank/114164455613?hash=item1a94bb58bd:g:7r4AAOSwIlBeg4QY (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Yamaha-XS360-XS400-Fuel-Tank-XS-360-400-Gas-Tank/114164455613?hash=item1a94bb58bd:g:7r4AAOSwIlBeg4QY)
Have I mentioned that I work at a JD dealership?
Good choice. This is my first RD I built when I was in high school. That is an XS500 gas tank. Built it in 84-85 and sold it in 86 to buy the new FZ600.
Quote from: 85RZwade on April 01, 2020, 09:06:45 PM
I found the perfect tank already!
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Yamaha-XS360-XS400-Fuel-Tank-XS-360-400-Gas-Tank/114164455613?hash=item1a94bb58bd:g:7r4AAOSwIlBeg4QY (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Yamaha-XS360-XS400-Fuel-Tank-XS-360-400-Gas-Tank/114164455613?hash=item1a94bb58bd:g:7r4AAOSwIlBeg4QY)
Have I mentioned that I work at a JD dealership?
Maybe I missed this but what style are you trying to emulate?
Another, RD/LC/TZ (see title subject) Should be interesting. :vroom:
That's right, I like most TZ and TD tanks, but of course they're silly expensive. Looking at street bike tanks that have a length and angularity reminiscent of the TZ/TD style and was put onto the XS400. I was kidding about the black tank with the John Deere sticker because I work on Deeres for a living, but it might be an option.
How about stretching an RD400 tanks. Brad J did that a while ago and it looked good.
Or a fiberglass TZ replica. Not quite the same as a genuine TZ tank but a whole lot more affordable. It would have to be sealed before use though. Ethanol in fuel and polyester resin don't peacefully coexist.
Wade, remind us again why you're using the RD chassis instead of the LC chassis?
1) seems like more fun bringing different components together
2) I have a title for the RD, no paperwork for the LC
Will that TZ swingarm bolt right into the LC chassis?
I don't know yet, but I am filled with witless optimism! Wouldn't it be great if it just slotted in there like it was made for that frame? Yamaha has done stranger things. My best-case scenario is I "just" have to make an upper shock mount. Worst case...
Pretty much at a stopping point with the engine since I can't get the cylinders and crankshaft evaluated. I can clean, rebuild the clutch basket, put the LC-RD case hybrid in the frame and get started on engine mounts, figure out steering head bearings, etc. I have a seat/tail design that I like, and I might try to make it out of fiberglass. I have lots of wood for a form from which to make a mold. How hard can it be?
Washington just got another month of stay-at-home and things are definitely slowing at work already; I think it's a matter of time before I'll be cooped up like all the rest. The CFO is worrying about $$, so my project budget has been slashed accordingly.
Who was the racer who said, after engine failure(s) in practice for Daytona (?) that his race strategy was "to ride this thing just as hard as I can without using the engine"? That's where I am.
This forum needs a "like" button.
Quote from: pdxjim on April 03, 2020, 01:47:44 AM
This forum needs a "like" button.
I'd argue no to a 'Like' button....they reduce comments, which is the only plus for forums these days....likes are far too easy to dish out and therefore devalue input to a single click n move on. Another forum I'm on has introduced them.....I get likes but no comments....I have FB for likes, Forum for proper communication.
What forums need is more text comment and image input...engagement is key or forums will die out completely IMO.
Thank you Jim and :agree: NoRiders
Quote from: NoRiders on April 03, 2020, 06:22:21 AM
Quote from: pdxjim on April 03, 2020, 01:47:44 AM
This forum needs a "like" button.
I'd argue no to a 'Like' button....they reduce comments, which is the only plus for forums these days....likes are far too easy to dish out and therefore devalue input to a single click n move on. Another forum I'm on has introduced them.....I get likes but no comments....I have FB for likes, Forum for proper communication.
What forums need is more text comment and image input...engagement is key or forums will die out completely IMO.
No comment.
Quote from: pdxjim on April 03, 2020, 11:33:28 AM
Quote from: NoRiders on April 03, 2020, 06:22:21 AM
Quote from: pdxjim on April 03, 2020, 01:47:44 AM
This forum needs a "like" button.
I'd argue no to a 'Like' button....they reduce comments, which is the only plus for forums these days....likes are far too easy to dish out and therefore devalue input to a single click n move on. Another forum I'm on has introduced them.....I get likes but no comments....I have FB for likes, Forum for proper communication.
What forums need is more text comment and image input...engagement is key or forums will die out completely IMO.
No comment.
:clap:
Quote from: pdxjim on April 03, 2020, 01:47:44 AM
This forum needs a "like" button.
---> :bacon: <----
it has one. :dawg:
Quote from: NoRiders on April 03, 2020, 06:22:21 AM
Quote from: pdxjim on April 03, 2020, 01:47:44 AM
This forum needs a "like" button.
I'd argue no to a 'Like' button....they reduce comments, which is the only plus for forums these days....likes are far too easy to dish out and therefore devalue input to a single click n move on. Another forum I'm on has introduced them.....I get likes but no comments....I have FB for likes, Forum for proper communication.
What forums need is more text comment and image input...engagement is key or forums will die out completely IMO.
Well, that other forum has responded to my polite discussion point in their 'chat room' and removed the 'Like' button. Let's see how it goes.
I response I pledge to comment a lot more....hopefully, not just shootin'shit either ;)
:whistle: Anyway...
I married the LC top case half to the RD bottom half as suggested by Mr. Spooner, for the purpose of establishing engine mounts:
(https://i.postimg.cc/gJBTPzmH/image.jpg)
I suppose it's more of a date, as nobody expects them to stay together...the whole coolant thing
(https://i.postimg.cc/cCpkrFKK/image.jpg)
Near-perfect fit, as advertised. Reminds me of parts-bin engineering, and I mean that in the most respectful and admiring way.
(https://i.postimg.cc/XvLPQKPh/image.jpg)
Is anyone else thinking "Bond movie"?
Pretty cool how they fit together isn't it?
Yes, even though you told me what to expect it was still a cool moment to see how well everything lined up. I was thinking "I could almost put shafts in there", but the countershaft bores are off by about a millimeter.
Gotta roll the frame out of the corner and get started on the mounts (easier said than done).
I think I might still have my mock up spacers for the front. I'm sure they will be the same for yours. I'll look for them. If so I'll give you the dims. I also have a few other things that might help you out with this.
I am not enjoying the fuel tank search. New fiberglass tanks are too many $$, and the OEM tanks close to the shape I like are thin on the ground and 35-45 years old. Best case scenario looks like a bit over $150 after shipping for a tank that has a dent or two, some rust inside and no cap or petcock. A breaker in Missouri wants $105 shipping, while another in Australia only needs $40 for a similarly priced tank!
Thanks, I just needed to bitch; I'll keep looking. Maybe on eBay.au!
I was lucky to find the CB200 tank I'm using, which came with the chrome flip cap and full trim inc badges.....but no petcock. £35 ($40) in the UK...my point, random parts soon push the total cost upwards rapidly.
Did you spot the other LC thread on here by Spooner? Engine looked very well built and detailed.
What's the overall style you're aiming at?
Good question, Colin, and by the way I re-read your build thread this morning. That tank was a nice find!
I am familiar with Joe's build, and my end goal is similar to his result: a cafe racer with a bit more than a passing resemblance to a production road racer, TZ, TA, TD etc. I like the look of those bikes, and my body still tolerates clip-ons and rearsets, so why not?
I was just outside a bit ago disassembling the LC clutch basket so I can transfer the hub and primary gear assembly to the aftermarket billet basket, so I'm still pressing forward. Watch this space!
How is your engine coming together?
The GT200 engine is built....
(https://i.imgur.com/ITRgtfr.jpg)
I just looked up TA TD TZ tanks...wowser mucho dinero amigo!! But, it'll be the crowning glory to your build....sometimes, you have to bite the bullet and go for it.....after all, you can get by with just one kidney I'm told ;) Maybe, a fire sale of redundant RD parts will top up the tank fund?
You might have already seen this type of tank on ebay, but in case you haven't...here's the link:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Universal-Cafe-Racer-Fuel-Tank-Petrol-Tank-9L-2-4-Gallon-for-Honda-Yamaha-BMW/382576217894?epid=4004030907&_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item591351cf26:g:p6YAAOSwQqJbrx1j&enc=AQAEAAACUBPxNw%2BVj6nta7CKEs3N0qXWF%2BGp8OL4CP2OgUeFq6%2BuiBKLRniHJxukTZ5yHSi546RTXOG5VxzK6CuEbqU7QQRrhyE5f6Xnx%2FQP1%2BiNQz%2BU3pqlpP3I3IRpG9dpwwJCPsA1xniMBUS1CCVKHk2YDsx8KChVSY5tv0PW2EsqbfNsE0Lqqt6GjkXKrjk4lIDz4u%2B6j8RN2%2BgOyTM4rrhKVpkn6nUIsSH%2Bu9KcRHyjoVaemmPY2CsUaUs%2FfolYErOOu38oWyLqIdWh5FQr7pglCQEDo3MzuO3N0LYVvKoFqzIIuMd8lBL%2FsemDusLaVxtwK795onkEAQArnfjp2oIgAhx86IJqDE653ctZObrOdSEizxUNMuFOtVihosE6yDbKqcCDVjH9ETeUkvHCBmsC%2BE6Et%2BGboFoVdUHXDTIF0ho367ArTG4tgg%2BEkYlK47ArxKyAwW966g%2FpKqc%2FyGg5w9MP19COLQZbWU03S%2F7jMGmHybY4dmwkhRqZWFsxz9HeeTp%2FSjPh0%2F%2Bny8Dwu%2FYI20Y02ETe2KIGdoefeuP0iTw3WtD6zUaXzCCR4AvpUq30mGJrnKgzuqNulNykDFSeSKboTx3oPXS1AogXy3396JteaMO9g2sqw5DzQp8dtZRPJI4ouiMolBk7sVYFZ4aOgLq7nbZoAraDzMVwKE3BJpJX0Xz9lkc%2Bft%2FztekSk5guR8M1ZaOAIoWWdf59ljHkK6SrDUqCQVVt2tcsQeuc7QJkuskJmHoVBvNpgKug5Ish%2F2gtuVsFhyDe9YAA3s1t5pU%3D&checksum=382576217894d5e6ea75a18b4ed986faae010eea37d5
A friend bought a far eastern tank and found it to be ok.
^ That looks like a helluva deal for a (probably) India made tank.
Just need to find one that ships to the States.
Did you email Sakis?
Sakis Vasilopoulos. sakisathensgr@yahoo.com
He's in Palm beach FL. area
He made my racebike tank.
Chuck
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/f500racebike/huge/Supertune%20and%20RD400%20midOhio.jpg)
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/f500racebike/huge/Racebike%20talladega2.jpg)
Oh, boy.
Colin-glad your engine came together and is ready to slot into the frame. Yes, I have been amazed at the prices those tanks command, and they're simply out of reach. And I have also definitely been considering that other tank on eBay; there are many of them, and I suspect they all come from...
Jim-India. They're all amazingly inexpensive, pretty much just what I want...and I watched that video of the India-made tank being cut open. Scardey cat.
Chuck- no, I haven't but I definitely will. Thanks for the contact info, I'll brace myself for the quote. The tank on your bike is spot-on.
P.S. Gotta hang on to my kidneys in case one of my kids needs one someday!
Now that is a shit eatin grin only a Mother would love. What a possier. :) :eek:
Love ya Doc. ;D
Do you still have the bike Chuck?
Yes, in a different configuration so I could win Daytona twice!
I had to lose the TZ250 fairing and use only a TA125 nose fairing. Gained 3 miles an hour... Thanks to Sakis making it.
C
Speaking of: I sent him an email as you suggested, Chuck. Also got a message from a forum member offering an RD60 tank, which is one of the possibilities I'd considered. Interested to see how those leads pan out.
Pulled the clutch basket apart today
(https://i.postimg.cc/T2FRDnvc/image.jpg)
-gasket is mostly gone
-two sizes of cushions
A little cleaning and I'll assemble the billet basket next
I tried, I really did...but before I knew it, I'd come up with two more reasons to go in to work AND I needed to get some good gas for the RZ, so I gave in and went after red Loctite.
(https://i.postimg.cc/y6Qf8SMc/BE1-B62-EB-E9-DF-4-BAC-8-E53-745-DA632-E8-C3.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/pXmshLv7/CBF59-DC8-FEE9-468-F-B05-A-7-DE8-EE60-D571.jpg)
Clutch basket done!
Tonight I stripped the RD of many parts and learned a thing or two, most notably that the TZ swingarm I have in mind WILL FIT. Width at the pivot is within 2mm (TZ is slightly narrower) and both use a 16mm pivot axle.
(https://i.postimg.cc/xdfKbM49/AD5-B2431-EEA3-45-F6-983-E-756-A0-D8-A0-FD5.jpg)
Picture is maybe misleading; they measure almost the same width.
(https://i.postimg.cc/B6tHms3y/F98988-B1-48-A1-454-A-88-E2-5-CC3-A20410-C9.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/vTV9dzct/ADA1645-F-477-B-43-E0-9-E30-A8-CA19-A1-D088.jpg)
Holy wheelbase, Batman! I hadn't anticipated the TZ arm being so long. Hmm.
(https://i.postimg.cc/8CZLdc2M/9-B94-DA60-7-C56-4-A7-C-87-CF-70-A20-CDCBE58.jpg)
RD pivot axle in the TZ swingarm (sigh of relief)
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZRg3ggKq/18-C1-FE7-D-6-D1-B-414-C-BF4-E-6-A958274944-D.jpg)
I don't know, kids, this swingarm might be too long. Effing cool looking, though, innit? I'll have another look at things in the morning, but this little bit of progress is pretty exciting. Stay tuned.
IIRC the TZ swinger is about 1.5" longer than a RD. That's a GOOD thing.
CMR Racing is building me a custom "TZ-G" swinger. I went 1" longer than stock, so almost 2.5" longer than a RD (to get the geometry I wanted. 24.5 degree steering head, less trail, IIRC 55" wheelbase, almost modern)
...that's not your problem as I see it.
Where are you going to mount the front of the shock?
... and if you're fretting the price of that tank, wait till you see the price of that shock.
Good luck finding an aluminum "G" shock, there isn't any. I am getting a custom one made... NOT CHEAP!
Thanks for the geometry information, it's good to know. Among other things, I was worried that I was building something that would handle like a log truck.
One of the Hail Marys of this project is the idea of using an OEM Elsie rear shock at first, to be replaced by an aftermarket unit as $$ allows later. I have the Elsie shock, and aftermarket replacements are available, which gets me away from the TZ shock situation. I do have to create an upper mount, and the plan is to use the Elsie frame as a design guide.
But none of that is my problem. In the harsh light of day (fluorescent tubes, really), this is clearly the next hurdle!
(https://i.postimg.cc/d3RH6Zzs/image.jpg)
Limited travel. The swingarm hits the frame on the right, and clearance isn't much better on the left. The TZ and Elsie frames bow outward to avoid this little interference issue. I may suss out the steering head bearing situation and be sure that's doable before I commit to modifying the rear of the frame.
Seems like that swing arm might be more trouble than it's worth. :umm:
I'm kinda feeling that. Still very much on the fence, and I may investigate the Elsie swingarm option.
Something tells me Elsie swingarms fit and you can get nice aluminum ones for those as well.
Sounds like $$$! The problem is that the frame tube on the right is bent in exactly opposite the manner I need. Seems like I ought to be able to cut it out and rotate it, flip it over or replace it so that it splays outward near the top to accommodate the width of the TZ arm.
(https://i.postimg.cc/VLGd7fX1/image.jpg)
The tube on the left is at least less of a problem, and might be fine once I can determine the position of the swingarm at full compression.
I'm just gonna lob out the old "why not just use the LC frame?" question again.
The title really isn't a big deal in WA. They will title anything.
:blah: WARNING: LONG-ASS STORY TO FOLLOW. CONTINUE AT YOUR OWN RISK :blah:
Well...you made me think about it*. A long time ago, in a barn about 20 yards away, I hatched plans for all these bikes in my herd. Over the years, what happened? Not a damn thing, unless you count rodent damage. Too many projects, too little time and way too little money; it wasn't going to happen.
So, I abandoned the TZ plan and started working on selling those parts, put the Elsie in a different category in my head ("donor") and focused on the RD and my 2nd RZ, which I haven't discussed much here. Two bikes to build, two bikes from which to harvest parts and sell parts to finance the builds. The RD was chosen over the Elsie because of the aforementioned title situation, the relationship between RDs and TZs and something about Elsies doesn't resonate with me. Maybe it's the shape of the tank. All of that (I know, it's a lot, but you were warned) being said, like I said earlier, you made me think (rethink?) about it. I've visited the Elsie a few times and tried to re-envision this build around that frame...it would simplify motor mounts, swingarm and pipe fitment, but I kind of relish those challenges. I do wonder about buying pipes designed for an LC and making them fit an RD chassis...Garret would probably do it with a set of his milleniums (I've decided not to try and use the DGs).
At any rate, New Plan: find out how the TZ swingarm fits the Elsie frame and then re-assess.
* thank you JIM for complicating my effing life :affirmation:
You could just sell me the TZ swinger, then you wouldn't have it complicating your life anymore?
Hey, just trying to help!
What a giver. Like Mother Theresa, you are! :knightpoop:
Quote from: 85RZwade on April 19, 2020, 02:56:02 PM
The problem is that the frame tube on the right is bent in exactly opposite the manner I need.
The tube on the left is at least less of a problem, and might be fine once I can determine the position of the swingarm at full compression.
FWIW as an easy fix/option, RD400 frames have both sides bent outward. :twocents:
Quote from: 85RZwade on April 19, 2020, 02:56:02 PM
Sounds like $$$! The problem is that the frame tube on the right is bent in exactly opposite the manner I need. Seems like I ought to be able to cut it out and rotate it, flip it over or replace it so that it splays outward near the top to accommodate the width of the TZ arm.
(https://i.postimg.cc/VLGd7fX1/image.jpg)
The tube on the left is at least less of a problem, and might be fine once I can determine the position of the swingarm at full compression.
I'd explore why the frame is shaped like it is, flipping it might hinder something else?
What's your view on using a twin shock fancy swingarm instead of the LC? I get what you're doing and using what you have, but do you need all the hassle? or would you be happy with something slightly simpler to achieve? Just sayin'...
Are we still talking about my project, or the pros and cons of marriage? ;D For instance, sell the TZ swingarm to Jim and buy a lovely aluminum arm (and shocks) for the RD...the idea has merit, I admit.
Quote from: 85RZwade on April 21, 2020, 03:54:39 PM
Are we still talking about my project, or the pros and cons of marriage? ;D For instance, sell the TZ swingarm to Jim and buy a lovely aluminum arm (and shocks) for the RD...the idea has merit, I admit.
HA....only 'cos I've done something similar.....suzuki GSX1100 alloy swingarm with twin shocks....looks the part and maybe minor shock mount adaptation. Note: I did have to reduce the pivot tube width to fit the frame.....but select the right swimgarm to suit the RD frame and you're laughing.
Image for illustration purposes.
(https://i.imgur.com/lRi1rFY.jpg)
:wave: hello, sports fans.
That is a fine looking aluminum (or, as you say there:"aluminum") swingarm you have, Colin.
No decisions nor pictures tonight, just an update after an hour in the barn:
LC swingarm will accommodate the TZ wheel (TZ axle is larger diameter, but easily resolved)
LC, RD and TZ swingarms are all 16mm pivot, nearly identical width at pivot
LC swingarm is WIDER at the top than TZ swingarm, hits RD frame sooner in upward swing
TZ swingarm fits nicely in LC frame. Lower clevis of shock is same width, pin is same diameter but a little short.
Shock mount of TZ swingarm is closer to the front of the bike, so it's got a lot of rear ride height. Forward shock mount would need to be moved or a shorter shock used.
RD frame has plenty of room for the LC shock.
So, like I said, no decisions tonight, but... :umm:
Wade!
Are you a member on Norbo's forum?
This may seem like uncharted territory here in the States, but I gair-aun-tea this road hath been trod before.
You've seen this thread, right?
https://rdlccrazy.proboards.com/thread/43493/rd-tz-lc
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49802008378_a936d05bc5_4k.jpg)
Those are real eye candy; I recognize a lot of parts there, and between them is a bike I'd like to build.
Not a member, but I lurk there from time to time. So far, only a member of three sites (four, actually, but TZ350.net has withered on the proverbial vine) and those keep me busy reading. I will read that thread ( it's Dusty's, I imagine , looks like his work), as I'm curious to see if the 400 frame in the foreground had to be modded for the Elsie swinger, and what tank is on the bike in the background, as it's everything I've ever wanted in a fuel holder! :metal:
i wen t thru a lot of this a few years ago, even had a few arms including an lc one, etc. i came to the conclusion that it would, in the long run, for me, be easier to mod an arm to be a single and use a modern shock than use an lc arm and try to source a usaeble shock or have one rebuilt.
the 1st one i layed out actually went on daves rd (well dimensionally), then i did one on mine, worked great. this same basic geometry is what dannys rear arm is based on, and it uses a cbr600rr shock. I know this geometry has been used at least 10 times that i know of to use a cbr shock.
Im not saying its better or worse, but it makes shock choices and availability much more feasible, for me, in the states.
.02
All OEM LC shocks are gonna be shagged at this point and are not easily rebuildable (AFAIK).
YSS aftermarket shock is a great option and about $300 by the time you get it here. Adjustable ride height and gets great reviews.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/YAMAHA-RD-350-LC-80-82-YSS-Top-Line-Monoshock/333503940141?epid=10009917894&hash=item4da662462d:g:bFEAAOSw1PxeOEeb
^that is a great option. i never found a suitable one back in 07-08 when i first did it. if that was available at the time i would have gone that route. :bacon:
And I think that's the shock that our man sav0r services. Is that right, Chris? Step away from the RD125 a minute, man...
Quote from: 85RZwade on April 23, 2020, 05:36:00 PM
And I think that's the shock that our man sav0r services. Is that right, Chris? Step away from the RD125 a minute, man...
No, not YSS, I think it's the ebay RFY shocks that he services. I don't know about the YSS "mono's" but I have YSS on my twin shock and they are great.
Quote from: 85RZwade on April 23, 2020, 05:36:00 PM
And I think that's the shock that our man sav0r services. Is that right, Chris? Step away from the RD125 a minute, man...
Nope.
YSS are made in
Taiwan Thailand.
Chris does upgrade service to RFY shocks made in China.
I knew it was a name with three letters! My plan has been to design around the Elsie OEM shock, ride it as long as I can stand it before buying an aftermarket replacement. As excited as I am that my TZ swinger fits so nicely in the Elsie frame,
(https://i.postimg.cc/fTPL6zqj/40-B0-D597-9770-49-FE-A630-3556-A0-A7972-D.jpg)
there's a ride height issue. As I see it, I need a shorter shock or move the upper mount forward. If I'm moving the mount, I might as well go back to the RD frame and build a mount where I need it. I don't think modifying the RD frame to provide clearance for the TZ swingarm will be a big deal.
Only upgrade for RFY China shocks is placing them in the garbage
Another late night eBay session yielded two sets of bottom-end bearings, all Yamaha NOS or Koyo, enough for an Elsie and an RZ, $240 including shipping. If I sell another lawnmower, I can shop for gaskets and seals next.
And I might have talked myself into using the Elsie frame for this project...
:o I pulled the old Michelin rain tires off the TZ wheels and will send them off to motodreams for his display resto. The front came off easy, the rear was a cast iron bitch, super stiff and did not want to let go of the rim! I'll mount a couple of tires that I have around for the continuation of the project, which I think will be in the Elsie frame. Have a new vision for the RD frame.
PZ2 S41? They were hard as rocks when new. :whistle:
I am torn between the swing arm or the clutch as to my favorite piece. Like em both , getting closer bit by bit
They had sizing unfamiliar to me:10/64-18 and 13/66-18. The model, if that's what it was, was printed or stamped on the sidewall and I didn't even see it until I flopped the rear up onto the tire machine (I was able to take the front off by hand, but the rear was a stiff old pita and I couldn't break the bead without some mechanical assistance). Maybe Evan will post the stamped model when he gets 'em, but I have forgotten what they said. It's age-related.
Yeah, the clutch is a pretty nice piece, almost a shame to close it away inside the case cover! I'll get to keep enjoying the swingarm, though. It should look better when cleaned up (polished?) :umm:
I cast a vote for polished.
That's what I was afraid of. My elbow gets tired just thinking about it!
now where did I put that buffing wheel :umm:
Oh, YOU'RE going to polish it, Russ? I misunderstood, and I like that idea much better :rock2:
:umm: :whistle: me and my big mouth :blah: I guess we can clear off a corner of the bench and throw that buffer up there. This a great polish for finish work
Quote from: 85RZwade on May 07, 2020, 12:48:25 AM
They had sizing unfamiliar to me:10/64-18 and 13/66-18. T...
10/64 means 100mm wide and 64% aspect ratio, 13/66 is a 130 by 66%. That way they were wide but not too tall.
Avon do a rear race tire that's 130/65 IIRC and it fits on a stock skinny rim. Race tire were like that back in the day to fit on skinny rims. They hung over the rim like my gut over my belt after this lockdown.....
Dunlop triangular race tires were the same - much wider than you might imagine.
Quote from: teazer on May 08, 2020, 01:42:38 PM
Quote from: 85RZwade on May 07, 2020, 12:48:25 AM
They had sizing unfamiliar to me:10/64-18 and 13/66-18. T...
10/64 means 100mm wide and 64% aspect ratio, 13/66 is a 130 by 66%. That way they were wide but not too tall.
Avon do a rear race tire that's 130/65 IIRC and it fits on a stock skinny rim. Race tire were like that back in the day to fit on skinny rims. They hung over the rim like my gut over my belt after this lockdown.....
Dunlop triangular race tires were the same - much wider than you might imagine.
Shh don't say that. All the keep it stock, only run stock sizes guys will have a seizure.
That's cool, Teazer, thanks for the education! And as for the pot-stirrer, I did a little research and the MT 3.00 rim of the TZ is designed for a 130 or 140 tire. About what I was thinking of putting back there... or would it be a 13 or a 14?
Hey Wade ... just want to make sure you know how jealous I am of your rear end :dawg:
That is some holy grail type shiz to be grafting on to an LC.
I'm almost willing to polish the swinga' for you just so I can fondle it for a bit.
I can't believe I've now had TWO people "offer" to polish my swingarm! Does anyone want to lever on tires for me, or take a turn at the parts washer?
I know what you mean, Jim. There are certain bikes that just resonate with me, and the TZs of the 80s are on my short list. I just love that rear wheel...felt stronger about the front when it had two discs!
I'd sure like to make some more progress, but my evenings have been filled either with fixing mowers to sell or riding dirt bikes with my boys. Gotta make a few dollars, and our oldest son is 17 now, so my window of opportunity is closing; how can I say no when they want to roll the bikes out with me?
I'm grateful for the isolation/work downtime.....maybe get the boys in the garage to wrench for you...show them the ropes...or maybe you tried that alread? Afterall, daddy needs his me time too. ;)
There's some evidence that I should stay away from eBay late at night; I was smitten by these pipes listed for the RZ350. Asked the seller what brand they were...he said no identification on 'em
(https://i.postimg.cc/2jBjGb9j/01-E043-A7-8-BEA-43-B1-A014-ECEE919-F07-BF.jpg)
So, they are NOT RZ pipes, but I'm not complaining. I bought impetuously, I own it and I own them, so the next step is ti figure out how to use 'em. More later
I'd look for an appropriate forum of FB group and ask on there for help identifying their intended fitment.
You need the RG that goes with em now!
Quote from: 85RZwade on July 04, 2020, 06:57:55 PM
So, they are NOT RZ pipes, but I'm not complaining. I bought impetuously, I own it and I own them, so the next step is to figure out how to use 'em. More later
Quote from: Czakky on July 04, 2020, 09:45:18 PM
You need the RG that goes with em now!
You should have planned ahead and bought this last year ;D
http://www.2strokeworld.net/forum/index.php?topic=190.msg1037#msg1037
Yeah...planning ahead is clearly not my strong suit! They're '86-87 RG250 units from what I have found, but the thing is I like 'em. They have a purposeful, workmanlike look to them that appeals to me, somewhat like OEM TZ pipes. I'm toying with the idea of blending them with the stock Elsie pipes, which have bigger headpipes and the proper mounting flanges. Figure I'll do some measuring and see if their dimensions make any sense for the LC engine, and if they're just dumb I guess sell 'em. RG forum like Jim suggested is probably the best place.
'Kay, gotta get back to the party, fireworks soon. Happy 4th, guys!
it might take a good bit of work to get them fitted.
might be better to get a set specifically for an lc/tz/rd
True statement and good advice. I think mounting them will be fairly straightforward; I've thought of replacing the header pipes with those of stock RD350LC pipes, simplifying the connection at the cylinders and determining the position and path needed. Then it's mostly a matter of clearing the tire and establishing mounting points for the rear of the pipes and for the mufflers.
The greater concern, I think, is whether pipes designed for 125 cylinders will perform well mated to 175 cylinders, and I need to dust off some reading material to refresh what I think I know about that topic. I like the look of these pipes for the end result I have in mind, but who wants a slow motorcycle? If their dimensions aren't suitable, I'll run the DGs I bought.
Maybe someone here will have insight in adapting pipes designed for a 250 to a 350! :whistle:
Any joy with the pipes?
None other than looking at 'em as I pass through the barn! It's been a busy summer and other bikes have been getting my attention. For instance, I have to pull the clutch cover from my KTM tonight to fix its shifting problem , then fix a couple of lawnmowers and I probably should mow the lawn...
yup, it can be frustrating when other things get in the way
and demand our attention.
All I can tell you is that they work really well on a mildly ported RG250. At least they did on my son's RG250 that is long gone.
They are quite small volume, but it you can adapt them to fit, they will probably work on the 350. Try them. What do you have to lose except time and money
:metal: just the kind of devil-may-care input I was waiting for, teaser! We're playing with old motorcycles here, so concerns about time and money went out the proverbial window long ago. Time to make some sparks.
A little progress. Mounted a set of BT45s late of the RZ350 so it'll have some shoes to stand on; they're old and I didn't pay attention to direction of rotation or the balance dots as they're for mock-up only.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fbGDKZMK/image.jpg)
I think they look pretty sexy.
yup looking good, they are a popular tyre choice.
are you going to refit them?
Nah, this set is old and hard but they'll do for rim protectors. I think I'm going to try the Continental radials for this machine when it's done.
A stroke of luck ;D, it happens that the ID of the top and bottom steering head bearings of both the TZ and the RDLC are 25mm. Youngest son wanted to know why there was a triple clamp in the freezer... :whistle: Momma was even more interested in the bearing race in the oven! I'm working on sourcing tapered bearings in the right sizes, but will assemble with the RDLC loose balls for now.
Hagon offers their RDLC mono shock in custom lengths, which could resolve my ride height issue out back, where I've installed the TZ wheel. Next I'll assemble the front end and she'll be able to roll again :celebrate:, and I can assess my chain run, assemble the brakes, :blah:
Sorry, no pictures this time :harley:
'Kay, so...
(https://i.postimg.cc/28gNzmns/image.jpg)
I finally got the front end on: 1983 TZ250 wheels, brakes & suspension (except the shock) on 1982 RD350LC.
(https://i.postimg.cc/gkxPFrLy/image.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/WpWPH0zb/image.jpg)
Things fit pretty well, but I will need a spacer on the stem of the triple clamp to make things right, and there's a definite stink-bugginess going on back there. Move the upper mount, or order a shorter Hagon? I'm going to upgrade the shock anyway, so that's settled.
(https://i.postimg.cc/qq5V6HSC/image.jpg)
I was thinking a 140 or 150, but that 120 looks about right.
(https://i.postimg.cc/KjzhY8q2/image.jpg)
I have a YZ85 caliper to try back there; the lesson here is: don't sell it (the TZ caliper, in this case) until you're sure you won't need it.
I slipped the LC seat on and the riding position feels pretty racy, even with the stock pegs. TZ upper clamp has no provision for handlebars, so it's clip-ons of some kind. Maybe the adjustable Telefix I have on my RZ?
(https://i.postimg.cc/4dwTZ91P/image.jpg)
The clip-one were symmetrical when I rolled it out. A goat must have bumped it. Really.
(https://i.postimg.cc/cHdNVmf6/image.jpg)
I think it's starting to look kinda cool.
oh yes, that does sit nice!
im a bit of a hoarder precicely for when i need something i dont say..."shouldnt have sold it"
"better looking at it than looking for it!!" :whoop:
It's raining bobcats and bulldogs here, so I stole some time in the barn.
(https://i.postimg.cc/SQ7y8Vzj/image.jpg)
That table needed to be cleared off anyway, and it wasn't sketchy getting the LC up there at all :whistle:
I reassembled the LC cases with the countershaft inside and slipped the bottom end back into the frame to check chain alignment...
(https://i.postimg.cc/yNMVhbP3/image.jpg)
And my luck continues!
(https://i.postimg.cc/sX53T466/image.jpg)
It appears that my much-abused swingarm will be safe from further chain damage.
(https://i.postimg.cc/90VCKwsW-/image.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/BQSJCDxp/image.jpg)
It's difficult to see in these pictures, but the upper run of the chain rests on the front of the swingarm, and the rubbing block isn't installed, so it'll be worse with it in place. Of course, my skinny ass isn't on the seat, so...? That's a TZ countershaft sprocket, which is happily the same spline as the LC.
And what, you ask, of those goofy Suzuki pipes I bought awhile back? Well, they look as though they'll fit just fine...
(https://i.postimg.cc/DzJvXTqK/image.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/8znkc5fH/image.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/cL6ZpSk8/image.jpg)
Thanks for asking! I might even be able to line the muffler mounts up with the original brackets. They'll tuck in a little better when the centerstand brackets go away. I like those clunky mufflers, but they're almost as heavy as a half gallon of milk...each. Maybe they're full of two-stroke gunk.
I continue to fiddle with this project here and there as I get a few minutes to slip away to the barn. Finding a gas tank that I like has proved to be a challenge because of this:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Wbx144vR/image.jpg)
and this:
(https://i.postimg.cc/J76h9qYz/image.jpg)
which create this little issue:
(https://i.postimg.cc/B6NvZcqN/image.jpg)
The double backbone and upper shock mount of the LC frame won't easily accept a tank designed for the RDs; at minimum, some modifications to the tunnel would be necessary. It led me to thinking of this:
(https://i.postimg.cc/zXyf5g4S/image.jpg)
which is a compelling idea, as, if I could pull it off, I'd have the fit and that look I want. I have never built a tank before, I have limited equipment and it looks like a steep learning curve and major time investment. So:
(https://i.postimg.cc/RhDVKSJH/image.jpg)
maybe I can live with the LC tank, at least temporarily. It doesn't clash with the lines of the TZ bodywork as badly as it did in my head, at least from this angle.
(https://i.postimg.cc/0jQyzMjv/image.jpg)
Thanks for stopping in; your observations, opinions and suggestions are welcome!
ambitious!
seems like the swing-arm angle is a bit steep though. :umm: :twocents:
Quote from: m in sc on November 02, 2020, 10:32:40 AM
ambitious!
seems like the swing-arm angle is a bit steep though. :umm: :twocents:
It looks a bit steep to me too, if I remember right something like 12-13 degrees would be the static angle you want to start with if you wanted to get all technical.
that sounds right-ish as well.
Good eyes; I found one author that said 5-10 degrees, and I'm still researching before I start cutting or buying a shock of a different length.
Quote from: Jspooner on November 02, 2020, 01:42:12 PM
Quote from: m in sc on November 02, 2020, 10:32:40 AM
ambitious!
seems like the swing-arm angle is a bit steep though. :umm: :twocents:
It looks a bit steep to me too, if I remember right something like 12-13 degrees would be the static angle you want to start with if you wanted to get all technical.
I'm thinking the magic number is 11-12 degrees not 12-13. I just checked mine and it's at about 11.5. I did that based the input from someone (can't remember who) that knows (I thought anyway) what they were talking about. You can see what that looks like in the attached pic.
I have always heard 12-13* is the magic number.
THAT MAY HAVE BEEN ME LIKE 10-12 YEARS AGO WHEN I MONOSHOCKED THAT 250, I DID ALL THE CAD WORK AT THE TIME. BUT WHO KNOWS WHERE THAT IS... SORRY CAPS.
Is the level app of an iPhone accurate enough for that measurement?
yes, you need to compare to lower frame tube as '0'
12/13 degrees is common for modern sportbikes. On vintage if I get 8 degrees I'm happy.
Cheers, 50gary
I can understand your aversion to the stock LC tank now.
The UK boys love 'em, but holy hell, this thing is huge.
(https://i.ibb.co/hKjSKx5/2976127-F-6-A87-40-CA-9-B5-C-6-DA5897-C182-F.jpg)
Maybe a dark color will help...?
Another clandestine trip to the barn today:
(https://i.postimg.cc/FHTrL17x/image.jpg)
Dry fit of VM32, Moose manifold, reed spacer, RZ reed block and boost bottle. It's on a rear stand, so hopefully the carbs will sit closer to level when this is over!
Quote from: 85RZwade on November 26, 2020, 09:14:35 AM
Maybe a dark color will help...?
Ive always been told that stripes are slimming ;D
Quote from: 85RZwade on November 26, 2020, 09:14:35 AM
Maybe a dark color will help...?
Sidecovers and front mudguard are helping already.
No pictures for you!
I think I mentioned once that I welcome opinions and input but reserve the right to forge ahead with my own ideas from time to time. I try to use what I have on hand, such as banshee/RZ reed cages (anybody need some?) even though they're reputed to be difficult to fit into LC intakes (they are...:bang:). Suffice it to say that I've seen the light (yup) and two YZ85 reed cages are on the way from eBay and new reeds from TDR.
I'm also second- and maybe third-guessing my carb choice. Was going to use a set of VM30s I have, then switched my plan to VM32s (I have one) and now I'm considering a set of stock RZ350 mixers I have. Still brainstorming here... I have a new old Toomey jet kit, a Y-boot (I know, not everyone loves 'em) and a filter and a new pair of intake manifolds that fit the RZ carbs...slam dunk, right?
YZ85 reed are bigger area than RZ and easier to fit, so that's a good move. RZ carbs are smaller than RD at 26mm but they work well on an RZ. Mine is basically stock with SPec11 pipes that the PO fitted before I bought it back in the early 90s and it made around 57 RWHP IIRC, so they are big enough for that sort of HP.
My thinking is that the smaller RZ carbs will be easiest to tune, and I can always swap in the 30s or 32s later on. A quick check this morning before work showed the Y-boot is a no-go; any filter would need to occupy the same space as the shock. If I use them, I'll need another set of pod filters.
The YZ cages will probably be here tomorrow, so there could be more test-fitting fun this weekend :toot:
VM30 are a known quantity.
John Economy can supply the cables and adjusters you need so they'll bolt right up. When I got a set of VM30 from Garrett, he jetted them before delivery and we ran a 6hr endurance race on the jetting he supplied with no changes (and we got on the podium and didn't blow up!)
Wade
I am running the yz85 reed cages on my RD350 with a 6mm spacer from Chuck. On the air cooled cylinder I had to enlarge the opening to fit the yz reed cage, the addition of the spacer makes the job go a little quicker.
Russ
Never let it be said that I can't take good advice; I bought YZ85 reed blocks from two sellers on eBay:
(https://i.postimg.cc/J0Tjn5G8/image.jpg)
:bang: 50% success rate! Sent seller #2 a message and we'll see what gets worked out.
(https://i.postimg.cc/CMJGmSJ2/image.jpg)
Anybody need a nice YZ125 reed block? :whistle:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Jn5NwL8G/image.jpg)
As a consolation, a nice package from TDR also arrived today, so not all is lost! Too bad they fit only one of the blocks I have (yes, I remembered to buy two sets!).
UGH... don't ya hate it when seller doesn't know what they have? Case for return? not what was represented. :whistle: I went ahead and bit the bullet and spent dollars for new, I researched used, however some sellers wanted nearly the same dollar amount that partzilla had for them. :umm:
It didn't occur to me to check new prices...suppose I assumed used was substantially less. Seller is befuddled by the situation, but is working on a solution.
Partzilla has seemed to have some of the lower prices on oe parts.
Russ, Partzilla has my number for sure!
I have been acquiring parts for this build lately, and mulling over some decisions, such as rebuild vs. replace crankshaft, or just run the one I have. Most of you will approve of my decision:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Mpf5v5yB/DE1260-C4-988-A-479-C-9-B46-113-BF569-D5-EC.jpg)
New assembly from Norbo via a member on the RD/RZ site. Bottom end cleaning and assembly can begin, and then I can figure out what to do with my cylinders...and head...
I have been pipe dreaming of late. Still like the look of these RG chambers for their chunky, almost-original-TZ look:
(https://i.postimg.cc/cL6ZpSk8/image.jpg)
Tried these old Lomas pipes on for giggles; they're destined for my 2nd RZ350 project, and I think that's a better place for them. Ugh.
(https://i.postimg.cc/yYQNhLXj/image.jpg)
To be fair, I hung them pretty hastily, so the (Toomey) silencers are cattywampus instead of parallel. Just not the look I'm after.
I picked these DGs up last year from Whymee over on the RZ/RD site without a clear plan for them. They're in excellent condition and I think they look good on the LC, so I plan to use them first as a somewhat known quantity for initial tuning and ballpark jetting.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Wbb3JBrt/image.jpg)
I see a lot of difference in overall length. My thought is to use OEM LC headpipes married to the RG chambers, so I need to re-read some expansion chamber theory to see if some additional length would be desirable. Maybe I'll find that the Suzuki pipes aren't suitable at all!
Here is a set in Japan
Pretty cheap at the moment
A little worse for wear for sure.
This version no longer used the RD/RZ style cases, but was TZ only so port angle is probably slightly different.
(https://auctions.c.yimg.jp/images.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/image/dr000/auc0204/users/74247f7a88fbb752ee3d5894bab6676649ed166d/i-img1200x900-1618828375gcxurq448395.jpg)
https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/d512276621
I think the DG RZ pipes look the best but I'm thinking they won't work very well because they are for a YPVS engine.
^ I agree. Never been a fan of the looooooooooooooong stingers on those JL's.
Quote from: pdxjim on April 25, 2021, 10:51:10 PM
^ I agree. Never been a fan of the looooooooooooooong stingers on those JL's.
Those should be called hoses.
Randy, I actually have (most) of a 1983 TZ250, which donated the wheels, brakes and suspension to this project. I never thought to try it's pipes on this build... I keep my pipes hanging from a truss in the barn usually. A couple of years ago, I took the TZ pipes down to take some pictures and neglected to put them back. You can probably guess where this is going. MICE made themselves at home in one, and the next time I picked it up, one side stayed put with a big 'ol mouse-house on top. Giant rust hole. They're well-used, welded many times and I paid relatively little for them, but I was so pissed at myself that I hung what was left and haven't looked at them since.
Joe, I wonder the same thing. I've read multiple places that RZ pipes fit LCs, and the ones I have more or less do, but they're not the same engine, just similar. Maybe eventually I'll get out the big wallet and put a sweet set of Tygas or some such on her.
Et tu, Jim? :huh:
Finally,...hoses?! :tough:
**they were THE SHIT in 1998, you know**
(as I understand it) RZ port timing is quite a bit different than LC/aircooled, and RZ pipes don't really perform well on the older non-YPVS cyls.
I only have the bitchin' stainless Garrett pipes on my LC (which were designed for aircooled port timing, so should work well on LC) because he made me a deal I couldn't refuse. No way else can I afford anything this nice.
... and don't feel bad, everyone (except me)hates the low pipes on my TDR. :whoop:
try to reach out to gary at specII. i'd be willing to bet hes made a set of pipes to fit that combo... . Im serious. worth a shot. :twocents:
:huh: more to think about :undecided:
https://rdlccrazy.proboards.com/thread/53958/tz350lc
That's a nice looking LC, but first gear must be a PIA to ride. Early 750 top end is really tame and easy to ride if it sits on top on a 400 transmission.
Fondseca had dry clutch covers with kickstarter boss and long input shaft to take 400 gears. Our RD350 has RD crankcases and wet clutch, TZ350 crank, TZ750 top end and clutch cover modified to accept a TZ water pump.
This build is NOT dead; I met with Garrett of GRA Two Strokes Friday night and he now has my cylinders and head on which to work magic. We of course discussed his pipes for this project, and I'm considering it for sure.
After most of a work day in the hot parts washer, going around and around, they're pretty clean.
(https://i.postimg.cc/zGs21nRQ/80-B83374-AD28-4-CBC-BCA4-AAE93-A37571-D.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/HkcvKSj5/CA49-BF8-C-81-DE-4-A9-D-9-D31-F5-E60-B9385-F4.jpg)
But there's still some work to do...
(https://i.postimg.cc/hP332F4c/4-B252684-2-ECF-4286-88-E9-14-A9-E3-AE98-AD.jpg)
Debating with myself whether to paint the cases or not. Does anyone know if a portable sand blaster can be used with soda? It was suggested to me that it's just a matter of a different tip in the gun.
Dont see why it would not work with the coarse soda. That said, blasting soda is pretty expensive compared to other media and a soda blaster is only about $100 at harbour freight. The one I have works way better than my blasting cabinet.
The answer is yes...sort of. I marched into Harbor Freight this morning and bought the smaller diameter ceramic tips for soda and a bag of said soda and gave it a shot:
(https://i.postimg.cc/N0fxLPyM/image.jpg)
Compare that to the "before" pic on the previous page (I know, pain in the ass...tell me more about your first-world problems) and be as underwhelmed as I am. It does work, but it doesn't feed well; I had to stop and shake the blaster tank often to get the soda to move. It did take some residue off that the parts washer didn't, but I was initially disappointed that the oxidation remained in those rectangular crypts on the right of the picture. Actually, the surface oxidation is gone and what you are seeing is stained aluminum. It's as smooth as you could want to the touch.
Even if I get it to feed well, it's not fun for me and I can see why people pay good money to have it done.
(https://i.postimg.cc/6QjfZLRh/image.jpg)
Tonight I mounted a footpeg.
(https://i.postimg.cc/nh4n4PNY/893040-D7-45-E9-4906-B6-F1-8584-E72-AD9-D5.jpg)
Years ago I bought a box of FZ600 parts that included a swingarm, or maybe that tough-to-find suspension link needed to put said swingarm into an RZ350, so I have some footpegs. They're a little smaller than the LC items and they have that cool little curb feeler (replaceable!) on the end, so people will know you're a badass racer. Instead of the LC aluminum casting that bolts to the outside of the frame and supports the back end of the pipe, I mounted the much smaller FZ casting to a plate on the inside of the frame.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3w976D8k/4-E068-A7-D-69-C6-4317-9-F33-507-C58595505.jpg)
This brings the footpegs in a bit closer to the bike. The new location is about an inch higher and not quite an inch rearward compared to stock; racier, but hopefully acceptable to my knees. They're simple plates, so I can make new ones with different hole locations pretty easily for comfort.
The plate is in the wrong vertical plane (too close to the center of the bike) for the pipe mount, so my plan is to make a two-legged triangular bracket out of round tubing using the same bolts as the plate, but mounted on the outside of the frame.
No fewer than 3 left footpeg assemblies in the FZ stash, but not a single right! eBay to the rescue. Nissin master cylinder from a quad, probably a YFZ450, slots in nicely. The right side bracket will extend upward and rearward to accommodate the master cylinder. Heel guards are kinda neat, but I don't think I'll bother with them, at least partly because I have 2 rights and no left!
(https://i.postimg.cc/XYH019jp/C78-E964-B-5-AD0-4572-A466-BCD61-E679-C5-F.jpg)
I'm supposed to be doing other things today. Right side mocked in plywood:
(https://i.postimg.cc/8Cwmq8tb/7-E76-CE3-B-5-B70-41-AB-B816-6-F601-DA8-B808.jpg)
Can you tell that the left side is 1/2" lower? Me neither. Hooray for eyeball engineering :cheerleader:
(https://i.postimg.cc/JhRQ67cn/A60-F4-EF0-7-A86-49-B8-AB52-F28813062-DD3.jpg)
I'll work on getting a seat on there and see which side I like better. I read somewhere about making your worst mistakes in cardboard (wood, in this case).
Honestly, I was just looking at coolant hoses when I found this:
(https://i.postimg.cc/X7CBYxz0/image.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/vZwgg9Jx/image.jpg)
$78 including radiator cap and hoses. Three rows, all aluminum construction. I couldn't say no.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bYM2P4LT/image.jpg)
Seems to fit perfectly. I don't think the Elsie is known for cooling problems, so this is just fun bling. I might have to put a thermostat in it now...I have seen the Elsie radiator suggested as a replacement for the RZ350, so maybe I'll do that. Or buy another $78 aluminum radiator for the RZ!
I fitted one of those rads on my hybrid bike, with a bi of added bling. The cover is for an LC and seems quite a bit bigger than the rad so I was wondering if the rad is actually smaller than a stock LC rad.
I had to add a fan this summer as it was overheating, but my motor is far from stock.
i have the same radiator. it works great. no thermostat needed just fyi. you can get the same one in rz configuration (or could).
I have a small fan on my hybrid. it never needs to come on, its set for 210 degrees 'on' @ the head. my coolant temp gauge is in the upper hose, just fyi. make sure you test fit with chambers on. :twocents:
That's good news, thanks for the details guys :love:
Tonight, when I couldn't stand to work on my kid's CR-V any longer, I slipped into the barn and made the latest iteration of the right side footpeg bracket:
(https://i.postimg.cc/13BY08FJ/image.jpg)
I flipped the master cylinder around and lowered the footpeg, so right and left pegs are the same height. There's a small spacer behind the master on each bolt; I think the steel is thick enough (4.8mm) to tap and forego nuts on the backside.
I use the same radiator on my LC/TZ as well. I run an RZ thermostat and no fan.
:whatever: This build is NOT dead! The air-cooled RD just got to be more fun and, well, kind of took over. There has been a setback, of sorts, though. Things didn't work out with the machinist I hired, and I have my cylinders and head back untouched: no boring, no porting, no heade mods. Maybe I have matured in the last few months :busey: but I am re-thinking the porting idea. Perhaps the better path is to leave the ports alone, have the cylinders bored and the head cut and put a modern electronic ignition in there. Perhaps add divider plates to the VM30s, mods reputed to enhance drivability. I probably don't need more power, at least not power delivered via lightswitch.
So, tonight I ordered an HPI from our friends at Treatland, taking advantage of one of their 15% sales (glizzymcguire) and got a Trailtech voltage regulator as well.
Anybody have experience with divider plates? :huh:
May have found another machinist; with a little luck, I'll be talking to him tomorrow afternoon :like:
Dude, sorry bout the guy that didn't work out! Care to elaborate? Maybe save someone else from grief?
:whistle: mmmm... :whatever:...
Quote from: 85RZwade on February 22, 2022, 08:56:08 PM
May have found another machinist; with a little luck, I'll be talking to him tomorrow afternoon :like:
He's the best I know, and a heck of a nice guy.
Bring cash!
Wallet is ready :burnout:
This afternoon I met with Mr. Ron Black, proprietor of RB Designs in Portland, Oregon.
https://www.rb-designs.com/index.html (https://www.rb-designs.com/index.html)
We briefly discussed work that he is prepared to do in his semi-retirement, and I will be taking my LC cylinders to him for boring in the near future. I left with a set of US model RZ350 carburetors that have been taper-bored to 30mm, re-jetted and had divider plates installed. I'm going to open them up to check the jetting, check the fuel level and see how my RZ likes them once the temperatures around here gets back up into at least the 50s.