I'm posting up how I install the Powerdynomo CDI ignition (now referred to a Vape cdi) on RD350/RD400's (R5 are similar)
I always found the wires were pinched behind the stator plate on the cases, so I alway grind the cases a little to not pinch the wires.
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/chrisrobertsrd350/large/20161224_111113.jpg)
In this 2nd pic, I also grind a little off the top corner raised part right by the upper bolt hole and wire loom hole is so the pickup plate will clear.
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400/large/20180901_180025.jpg)
I have also found some engines castings are all different so I grind the back of the stator plate most of the time just to be sure the stator plate fits perfectly flat without rocking around the seal casting area.
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400/large/20180901_180010.jpg)
So overtime with many installs I did have one issue on Paul's install after 1200 miles.
These CDI ignitions are made for many models of bikes. I have to assume because of this, the mounting back plate is a 2 piece design, a stator aluminum plate bolted to a steel backing plate specific to the RD Yamaha engine application.
In doing this, the 2 plates are mounted together with just 2) 5mm x 10mm flat screws, even though the stator aluminum plate is drilled to have 4.
Pic of the 2 stock location ones (my new bolts)
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400/large/20190516_145627.jpg)
In this Paul's isolated case these 2 bolts came lose and destroyed the stator and flywheel. (was purchased 18 months ago-prior to being bought by Vape)
Many extra thanks go out to Vape and John at Economy Cycles for working at a warranty coverage on this issue!
For me, I now will drill and tap all of my installs for 2 more bolts red loctited in to never have this happen again.
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400/large/20190516_145622.jpg)
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400/large/20190516_150337.jpg)
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400/large/20190516_150341.jpg)
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400/large/20190516_152555.jpg)
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400/large/20190516_152753.jpg)
I didn't have any 5mm x 10mm screws on hand. but did have some 12mm ones, so I shortend them to 10mm...
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400/large/20190516_154352.jpg)
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400/large/20190806_183553.jpg)
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400/large/20190516_154404.jpg)
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400/large/20190516_154346.jpg)
One other issue was on another early Powerdydnomo was on Guillermo's RD400.
The wires vibrated and rubbed them bare and shorted out under the stator.
On the latest Vape stator I noticed the black sleeving was pushed on more and not as much of the wires exposed.
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/guillermosrd400videos/large/20171203_154809.jpg)
I now use Permatex Ultra gasket maker in black or gray and fill in around the wires and loom and let sit overnight before installing stator.
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/guillermosrd400videos/large/20171221_194205.jpg)
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400/large/20190806_193806.jpg)
I also replace the stock stator windings bolts, just was too gun shy at this point as my customers drive and come a long ways to have me do their work, I never want issues!
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400/large/20190516_154657_1.jpg)
I buy 30mm long ones...
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400/large/20190516_154614_1.jpg)
Then shorten them 2-3 mm depending on how much I ground the back side to clear the cases...
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400/large/20190516_160614_1.jpg)
I'm confident that the stock bolts are fine, if you loctite them with Blue loctite. (just me being annel)
Same with the three 6mm stator plate for the backplate to the engine cases. I did again go with new black hardened ones from Ace Hardware.
I forgot to take pics of the little digital pickup mounting bolts and size (3mm I think)
Are also replaced and all installed with Blue loctite.
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400/large/20190809_130912.jpg)
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400/large/20190809_130921.jpg)
If your using a neutral light, make up a wire or cut out the stock lead from your old stator harness.
I do make up a new one, as I don't like butchering up the stock parts if ever needing one for another customer or ever back to stock.
I use a very thin heat shrink on the wire as I run it behind the stator plate. Some just loop it outside.
Wrapped and heat shrinked here too through the notch.
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400/large/20190809_130846_1.jpg)
I use strips of thin foam and cloth wire loom tape around the wires to seal the large loom hole going into the cases.
then cover with black plastic loom covering.
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400/large/20190809_130855_1.jpg)
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400/large/20190809_135148.jpg)
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400/large/20190517_144404.jpg)
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400/large/20180901_192243.jpg)
In these pics of the pickup I sanded the pickup top corner just a little to clear the cover and fold down the white wire ground leads on the pickup mounting bolts.
Now once the stator is all mounted up with blue loctite and pickup mounted time to set the pickup gap...
I forgot what the instructions say...I use .016 feeler gage.
Put the flywheel on just pushing it and a slight tap with a screwdriver handle so it's in place on the crank taper (dont worry where as were not timing yet.
Turn engine and flywheel (no spark plugs in) to the top of the trigger ramp right over the pickup post, loosen the 2 pickup bolts and get the feeler gauge in between and push down against the feeler gauge and tighten screws. Just before doing this use some Blue loctite on the screws first.
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400/large/20190809_135145.jpg)
Now is a good time to check the rotor bolt length as I have seen some cranks not as deep on taped threads. (7mm x 1.0mm thread)
Do this by taking off the thick washer and hand threading in the rotor bolt all the way and see that it will go all the way in, then adding the washer you'll know it won't be bottomed out and not holding the flywheel on correctly.
Setting the timing next then wiring tricks and mounting coil and relay... be back later after I find and upload more pics and take a break. Back is hurting today...
Chuck
When I do a flywheel install I do take off the clutch cover so I can use a crescent wrench (adjustable wrench) on the crankshaft primary nut to turn and hold the crank to torque the crank rotor bolt on the flywheel.
Depending on what dial gauge you have... the number printing can be different on the gauge. I have a few of them.
In this pic it's my old Suzuki timing gauge.
The numbers are backwards on this one. I have already found TDC and "zero'd" the dial gauge and turned the crankshaft clockwise to 1.9mm as RD's run counter clockwise (always remember crank turns same way as the wheels) so I want BTDC ignition timing. (before top dead center)
I'm 1 turn and almost a 2nd turn down and stopped at the .10 mark which is .90mm, 1.9mm total BTDC
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400/large/20180915_142639.jpg)
Mark H, (m in sc) gave me a tip to heat the flywheel up before installing it on the crank, so I use a heat gun on it about 90 seconds and use welding gloves to put in on.
This is very close where you want it to the pickup post verses the firing ramp. I would like to have a pic of it about 1/3 under and this is showing 1/4 to the post.
Tap with a mallet to lightly seat and get the rotor bolt in and torqued up with blue loctite.
Make sure you have the upgrade bolt kit from John at Economy Cycles with the thick washer and not the plain thin one.
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400/large/20180901_194417.jpg)
I have previously posted using green retainer locktite on the taper in the past, but I thinks Marks method is better, as too much loctite causes problem coming loose later from being too thick.
With Johns suggestion (EC) I have upped the torque spec's from what I used to torque to and use 165 in-lbs (14 ft lbs) on the rotor bolt.
Mounting up the coil on 400's can be done with some drilling and a bolt with a spacer to center in the backbone.
Use a hardened 5mm bolt, spacer and a lock nut.
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400/large/20180819_170500.jpg)
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400/large/20190517_144234.jpg)
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400/large/20190517_144419.jpg)
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400/large/20190517_144432.jpg)
You can see where I also drilled a hole to mount the relay right in front of the coil for mostly stock bike electrical systems using the Yamaha Zuma 5ah AGM battery.
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400/large/20180819_170527.jpg)
Upshot pic...
I then use the old coil mounting hole were the factory harness ground is and use that as a grounding point for the relay and bring back a ground wire to the fuse panel plate to run more grounds off of.
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400/large/20190517_144242.jpg)
I mount the new all-in-one rectifier/regulator where the old stock 2 units were and use some small washers to space up the fuse box so it will fit underneath.
I think I just made a new hole and used an existing one to mount.
A couple of pics of different mounting...
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400/large/20190517_145242.jpg)
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400/large/20190809_134220.jpg)
I grounded the ret/reg brown wire there. (euro color for ground with the Powerdynomo)
Made a ground lead to go from here to the top of the engine cases as the 400's are rubber motor mounted in the frame.
In this next pic you see the grounds on the stock backing plate.
1) going to the coil mount ground point
1) going to the engine case
1) going directly to the battery negative post
1) is the brown for the ret/reg
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400/large/587229916.jpg)
On the RD350s the backbone is smaller and so I weld a strip of metal with coil pattern and weld it to the top tube.
I did trim some of the flat plate to fit also.
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/dansawyerrd350/large/20190402_204138.jpg)
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/dansawyerrd350/large/20190403_194834.jpg)
Another problem with 350's when mount the coil here is no place to run the throttle cable!
So I holesawed and ground a slot for the cable to go through the frame.
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/dansawyerrd350/large/20190402_204518.jpg)
With the 350's I mounted the relay under the tank mount as no room up front.
The ret/reg is mounted on the bottom of the battery box were the old rectifier and regulator were.
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/dansawyerrd350/large/20190407_132345.jpg)
I also replaced the stock fuse with a mini blade 20amp fuse holder w/water resistant one with a cap on the 350's.
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/dansawyerrd350/large/20190402_204336.jpg)
Wiring...
This is talked in the RD400 setup as mostly shown.
The wire loom from the stator will go all the way up to the ignition coil and plugs in 3 wires, red,yellow white in a 4 connector plug with only 3 being used.
Halfway up the stator loom is the pair of AC blacks that plug into the rectifier 2 connector plug. Both are A/C, just connect up does not matter which wire.
You will have a single light blue wire from the ignition coil that is the grounding kill wire for the spark. Powerdynomo is a magneto type system, not 12v battery fed like a stock RD.
If you don't run a relay this wire can go to any kind of a switch that will connect to ground, a handle bar push button like a dirt bike, hold until engine stops turning or you can wire in to a stand alone switch, ignition switch, etc.
When running a relay as shown in these installs, this light blue wire goes to the relay on pin #30, then the relay controls it to ground with a ground output terminal #'s 87a and 86 on the relay that comes pre-wired together with the powerdynomo setup as one brown (euro ground color) that I showed going to ground to the old coil mount under the tank with the factory harness ground and then a wire lead going back to the side cover grounds where the ret/reg is.
The relay gets power from the stock coil 12v switched wire (red w/white) coming out of the stock harness at where this wire was connected to the stock ballast (RD400 only) that fed the stock coils.
This is how all of standard key ignition switch and stock handlebar toggle stay working and is coupled to the stock fuse system.
I run the red wire right from the rectifier/regulator directly to the battery with the stock red from the harness.
The brown from the rectifier went to the ground terminal discussed before under the side cover
I do it all this way so I only have one extra wire connecting to the battery terminals, Just the stock positive/negative and this +/- pair for running the Powerdynomo setup.
I don't bother with a extra inline fuse on the red battery + side, but you can if you want.
The brown from the rectifier went to the ground terminal discussed before under the side cover.
Ok,
We have learned that this is a magneto type system and uses a grounding system to kill the spark from the light blue off the ignition coil either by a 12v fed relay to keep the circuit open for run or use a open circuit and you use a push button or switching to ground switch to kill engine.
With more past experience I now tie into the light blue wire from the ignition coil and the relay and run a longer lead wire to the side cover and put in a bullet connector for emergency should your battery go out or be dead, you can disconnect it to get into the run mode if this happens or if you lose your keys!
You won't have lights, but can run and still charge the battery so not limited to battery power as I run the charging system as a direct stand alone wiring the way I showed.
Here's a pic of running this lead and bullet connector to the side cover, so if ever stuck, pop off side cover and unplug bullet connector for run mode.
Think ahead and make the lead from the coil side as the female side that is shrouded and won't short out if dangling around when not connected!
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400/large/20190517_145230.jpg)
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400/large/20190517_145242.jpg)
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400/large/20190809_134220.jpg)
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400/large/587229916.jpg)
I always verify ignition timing on every job I work on, the saying goes if you assume, it can make you an ass.
Setting timing is a must before any carb and engine tuning can be done! GET IT?
Back to taking out the spark plugs and dial indicator back in and establish TDC and "Zero" the gauge and then turn crank clockwise to get to the BTDC side of timing and stop at the timing you want to run. I run mostly 1.9mm on 400's and 1.8mm on 350's as a baseline to get the bike running well first then come back later to tinker if wanting or needing to with using dyno results verifying which way you want to go.
I use a marker pen on the flywheel with a pointer attached to the side cover as shown in the pics.
color in a area wide around the timing area and use a fine scribe to make some fine lines for the pointer to line up with.
On let's say a 400, I make one mark at 2.0mm BTDC and another one at 1.8mm.
I'm shooting for right between the 2 lines I'll see with a timing light at idle.
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400/large/20180915_142639.jpg)
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400/large/20180915_142649.jpg)
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400/large/20180915_143918.jpg)
Video's
https://imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400?p=248&n=1&m=-1&c=3&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=3 (https://imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400?p=248&n=1&m=-1&c=3&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=3)
This one is also checking charging system and watching it slightly retard the timing at higher rev's a little bit after already warmed up
https://imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400?p=249&n=1&m=-1&c=3&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=3 (https://imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400?p=249&n=1&m=-1&c=3&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=3)
RD350 the same except timing at 1.8mm
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/dansawyerrd350/large/20190404_131710.jpg)
Video
https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/dansawyerrd350/20190404_131714.mp4
If you do everything correct this is what will happen!
https://imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400?p=1&n=1&m=-1&c=3&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=3 (https://imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400?p=1&n=1&m=-1&c=3&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=3)
https://imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400?p=2&n=1&m=-1&c=3&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=3 (https://imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400?p=2&n=1&m=-1&c=3&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=3)
https://imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400?p=283&n=1&m=-1&c=3&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=3 (https://imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400?p=283&n=1&m=-1&c=3&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=3)
https://imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400?p=282&n=1&m=-1&c=3&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=3 (https://imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400?p=282&n=1&m=-1&c=3&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=3)
Excellent work Chuck!
Thanks Mike, it's for all of you too!
Chuck
Dan's 350 with the Powerdynomo...
https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/dansawyerrd350/20190407_124617.mp4 (https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/dansawyerrd350/20190407_124617.mp4)
https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/dansawyerrd350/20190407_153945.mp4 (https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/dansawyerrd350/20190407_153945.mp4)
I hope I make the Supertune video library next spring. :clap:
thanks a million chuck, i will try to follow this on a few weeks when i hopefully get the ignition done.
Chuck, it was good to visit with you last week. I am always impressed by the depth of your knowledge and the meticulous care you take with everything you work on. It has been further demonstrated by the time and detail that you put into this post that unselfishly helps everyone else.
Good job my friend!
Quote from: Baldwin53 on August 13, 2019, 02:49:52 PM
Chuck, it was good to visit with you last week. I am always impressed by the depth of your knowledge and the meticulous care you take with everything you work on. It has been further demonstrated by the time and detail that you put into this post that unselfishly helps everyone else.
Good job my friend!
Thanks for the nice comments sir.
It's all about US, not just me, the 2 stroke community is all about friends, family and loving our dream bikes!
C
Quote from: Baldwin53 on August 13, 2019, 02:49:52 PM
Chuck, it was good to visit with you last week. I am always impressed by the depth of your knowledge and the meticulous care you take with everything you work on. It has been further demonstrated by the time and detail that you put into this post that unselfishly helps everyone else.
Good job my friend!
Well said Sir!
Excellent write up Chuck!
Here's some Extra Info from members here on the relay setup wiring I added...Chuck
Thank's guys! :clap:
Comments from DVSRD...
Use a regular automotive 5 pin relay. Connect the blue wire to pin 30. Connect pin 86 AND 87A to ground. Connect the original 12 volts supply to the stock coils to pin 85. Then it works. Pin 87 is NOT used!
Comments from m in sc
#30 and #85 should go to ground (30 is to operate the relay - power feed, 85 is 'signal' the coil receives)
#87a should go to the blue coil wire (this is the normally closed pin, this grounds with lack of power to the relay)
#86 should go to 12v switched power (this is what powers the relay when you turn the key on to unground the coil)
#87 is not used. (this is the normally open pin. do not use in this application)
Or as DVSRD stated, basically the same thing. MAKE SURE when you turn the key on the relay clicks. if it doesn't, check your 12v supply to trigger the relay, and the ground.
its literally a $10 retail part off the shelf. its in the electrical /lighting aisle. But it has to be a 5 pole.
https://www.onallcylinders.com/2015/01/02/relay-case-whys-hows-using-relays-automotive-wiring/
hey chuck its been a long time, does this installation cover the daytona also?
Quote from: motulman on July 07, 2020, 08:00:39 PM
hey chuck its been a long time, does this installation cover the daytona also?
Pretty much the same as RD400's, the difference with a Daytona model is the headlight signal relay yellow wire from the stock stator.
I don't remember what I did exactly...I think I just may have jumped the relay in the headlight shell to turn on with the key and not use the relay.
Chuck
thank you for your reply, yea ill be on this installation for i bit i think
chuck what was the reason for the pookey on the gen wires?, did you shave the edge off the stator mount where the wires go through?
hey chuck what do you do with the ballast resistor? is it used? its not mentioned in the vague instructions and i dont think you mentioned it either
you dont use the 400 ballast resistor with the vape at all. you can use the unresisted feed wire into the resistor to power the relay. the silicone on the back of the wires is to reduce vibration/chafing issues you may have. :twocents:
Quote from: m in sc on July 18, 2020, 11:42:42 AM
you dont use the 400 ballast resistor with the vape at all. you can use the unresisted feed wire into the resistor to power the relay. the silicone on the back of the wires is to reduce vibration/chafing issues you may have. :twocents:
thank you so much m sc
so...you just bailing wire the other end of the coil?
Quote from: SUPERTUNE on July 09, 2020, 09:52:46 AM
Quote from: motulman on July 07, 2020, 08:00:39 PM
hey chuck its been a long time, does this installation cover the daytona also?
Pretty much the same as RD400's, the difference with a Daytona model is the headlight signal relay yellow wire from the stock stator.
I don't remember what I did exactly...I think I just may have jumped the relay in the headlight shell to turn on with the key and not use the relay.
Chuck
i wish you would remember what you did exactly
just bypass the relay, run switched power directly to the headlight switch.
mark there is no headlight switch on a daytona
theres a hi/lo switch correct? power to that can be fed from switched 12v
when key is on, HL is on. since the ign doesnt need power to fire, persay, no peril.
ill look into that mark thank you, just dont want to burn it up
What a great thread packed with great info!
Brilliant, Thanks Chuck.
I am currently in the process of fitting a Powerdynamo system on my 250b
The relay is relay is really confusing me [that isnt hard to do :eek:]
ATM I have just fitted the unit and wired up everything as per the instructions
supplied with the system.
I probably should make sure that the pin connections match what is posted here.
There is a clack wire from the relay with no connection fitted but I have no idea
where that connects to.
Im using a U.S loom