Looking for tech advice about Vape Ignition installation on a 1975 RD250B

[RDryan]

 

Seems like the generator part of the install is straight forward connecting to the new coils but things get a bit confusing when connecting the new regulator/rectifier to the old wiring as well as how to maintain the neutral lamp function as the new generator is missing a wire to connect to that plastic shift cover on the shift drum.

Getting back to the regulator/rectifier it seems like I should crimp on some flat male connectors to the black and red wires of the old harness and simply connect those to the new regulator? Then simply leave the three white wires as well as the red wire with white stripe not connected? All these wires come from the old rectifier. However if I am correct in understanding all of this what do I do with the old regulator? By rights it can be removed?...and if so there is a red with white stripe wire, green wire, black wire, and brown wire all connecting to corresponding wire colors on the old wiring harness.

I did do a search on this forum but really haven't seen anything in regards to this kinda install. This post maybe redundant as I will be in contact with both HVC cycles as well as Economy Cycles but if anyone would like comment on the install with some experience it would be much appreciated.

As an aside I guess it would help for me to have a better understanding of how the wiring and components all play together but fwiw I taught myself how to set up the points and bought this setup after reading great things about it and really just suspect the points/timing  not wanting to stay where I keep it set no matter how much I tighten the screws. So if there's a tip for that like loctite well it's too late as I already spent about 700 bucks on the Vape kit and trimmings so I just gotta make this set up work and in the long run I think I will have a more reliable bike for it. 

[SUPERTUNE]

I can help soon, I'll be back online tonight, trying to clear out all the shop jobs to leave Sat for the 2 stroke meet @Deals gap for next week.
Chuck

[m in sc]

well the stock reg rectifier gets removed. the harder part is you need to ground the coil to kill the bike. this will involve a relay if you want to keep the rest of the harness stock and use the key/like switch.  not hard at all. as far as the regulator, run the hot (red) lead to the battery and you're golden if you follow the rest of the diagram. get the kit from economy. I'll add more when I get home at dinner now

[RDryan]

Hi, Supertune, m in sc. Thank you for your replies. I am totally patient. I got home about four hours ago from working and had to do the usual putting work away, cleaning and cooking and couch surfing,lol. I dig and sell clams, a back breaking form of self employment. Gotta be a slave to low tides and the weather conditions. If it's a nice day to mess with bikes then usually its a day to go clamming but at least I am gainfully employed to have money to spend on my bike. ;D 

I really haven't done much to get this conversion/ install underway except buy all the stuff and really just scour the net to get a better understanding of what to do. Tomorrow I would like to remove my gas tank and the old generator see if I can get a better look at how this bike is wired. As of now I just took the Vape Ignition kit out of the box and have looked at the instructions in hand as well as online. Also just looking at my bike seat up and took the battery out and looking at the old regulator/rectifier. It really is an odd relic of electronic design from the past. It's amazing as it looks so hulking. These two seperate components. with so many wires.....I feel intimidated. Well with the paper instructions it just seems like the Vape folks are working with a later rd400 model with it's later one piece design regulator rectifier bolted to the side of the battery box above a fuse panel with a whole lot less wires. Basically just the wires that my rd250 uses for it's rectifier bolted to the bottom of the box.

Just for giggles, curiosity  I took some stray wires and bolted them to my battery leads and touched one to the fender  to negative battery lead and with the regulater unplugged I believe it was the brown wire terminal to the positive lead. So what happened was a spark at the fender and the round flasher switching on and off and the neutral lamp on the tach would light up. No real damage to anything but I guess I had this idea that the brown and green wires were leads going to the turn signals. Just goes to show my ignorance of how this stuff works. Well I will be patient because as an afterthought I just don't want to reverse polarity and burn something out.

[RDryan]

well the stock reg rectifier gets removed. the harder part is you need to ground the coul to kill the bike. this will involve a relay if you want to keep the rest of the harness stock and use the key/like switch.  not hard at all. as far as the regulator, run the hot (red) lead to the battery and you're golden if you follow the rest of the diagram. get the kit from economy. I'll add more when I get home at dinner now

What is the coul? So this kit did come with a relay, and the directions say that you don't have to use it if you want to simply plug in a kill switch were this blue wire from the relay is supposed to connect to the two in one coil unit that also comes with the kit.

So my understanding with the Vape regulator is two black wires running from their generator will take the AC current to the regulator from there simply connect the red wire to the red wire with a 15 amp fuse in line (it's actually the only fuse on my bike) going to the positive battery lead. Then I must take the brown wire and either ground it or attach it to the black wire that was running to the original rectifier. There's also a stray male tab bolted to the Vape regulator and according to the wiring diagram it looks as if its a sort of redundant ground if that make sense. but I suppose it wouldn't hurt to maybe crimp a female connector as I have a box of those to a wire and simply ground it to the frame as added insurance? I dunno maybe thats not really necessary as the instructions don't really say to do it.

[m in sc]

yes, its a redundant ground. i used it on mine just because. you have the idea, your wiring plan sounds right, its pretty easy. IF you want key functionality, just use the blue wire off the coil to the other side of the normally closed lead on the relay, connect the ground to the other normally closed circuit, ground the -on the switching power on the relay, and hook up the brown coil power wire to the relay + switching post. key on, ungrounds coil, bike runs. hit kill switch on bars, bike dies but lights stay on.
you can use a dirtbike 1 wire kill on the bars as well to kill the bike, tied to the coil kill wire. just depends what you want to do.

-mark

[RDryan]

Well I was just looking at a wiring diagram that's part of a 1973 rd250/350 service manual. So now it makes a bit more sense to me. There's a red wire with white stripe that connects the regulator to the rectifier. Then there is a black wire which is a ground running from the generator and a green wire also coming from the generator which I assume is transferring AC current to the regulator. Now the brown wire (that I was messing with mentioned earlier) running from the original regulator is going to a flasher relay as well as going all directions to what they call front and rear stop switches, the main switch and a warning lamp in the tachometer to name a few.

Like I say I guess I am just trying to make sense of it. Seems like with the new Vape generator I just gotta make sure I have good AC connection to the Vape regulator then simply get a good positive connection to the battery and a good ground and that's it.

So what confuses me?....is I would have to assume that the wiring harness will take this DC ouput from the Vape regulator and power lights and such? See how ignorant I am  but thoughtful  about it all  ;D At least I found a service manual online that someone was kinda enough to post some time in the past, lol. 

[RDryan]

yes, its a redundant ground. i used it on mine just because. you have the idea, your wiring plan sounds right, its pretty easy. IF you want key functionality, just use the blue wire off the coil to the other side of the normally closed lead on the relay, connect the ground to the other normally closed circuit, ground the -on the switching power on the relay, and hook up the brown coil power wire to the relay + switching post. key on, ungrounds coil, bike runs. hit kill switch on bars, bike dies but lights stay on.
you can use a dirtbike 1 wire kill on the bars as well to kill the bike, tied to the coil kill wire. just depends what you want to do.

-mark

Hi Mark.  I would like to retain the ignition switch and as well as the run/stop switch as original. So yeah I guess you had me guessing what coul, it just a mistype of coil. I'll tell ya if there was something more for me to look for I would spend till the end of time taking apart this bike to fine  a coul...lol but that's me not knowing anything.

Just silly enough to buy this bike from the local bike shop a couple years ago with an oil leak and worn chain and sprockets and lean running issues. That's what's led to this. A few months ago I had the engine out of the bike with the cases split. Replaced seals and gaskets as well as fiber clutch plates, clutch cable, pistons and rings oh and the jewel...a  new Vito's crank. Didn't need it but I just wanted the insurance. I really went all out with this bike but not before I enjoyed for almost three thousand miles till the oil leak got so bad along with the carbs I guess gumming up or maybe it was the timing. I dunno but she sat for almost a year till the past few months.

[m in sc]

I tend to have typos...especially when using the phone. ???

yeah, the stock harness will be fine, no issues.  and that brown wires is fine as well. take note though, there's a  really dark brown wire, that's a turn signal wire, then a not quite as dark brown wire, thats switched power. the brown wire up by the coils is the one powered by the handlebar kill switch and 'not quite as dark brown', that's the one you should tap off of.

the red/white wire just jumps between the regulator and rectifier on the stock harness. you wont be using it. 

[RDryan]

I tend to have typos...especially when using the phone. ???

yeah, the stock harness will be fine, no issues.  and that brown wires is fine as well. take note though, there's a  really dark brown wire, that's a turn signal wire, then a not quite as dark brown wire, thats switched power. the brown wire up by the coils is the one powered by the handlebar kill switch and 'not quite as dark brown', that's the one you should tap off of.

the red/white wire just jumps between the regulator and rectifier on the stock harness. you wont be using it. 

Hi, with a window of time away from work and a dry sunny day to wheel the bike out of my house ( yeah I'm single with no garage) I managed to get the gas tank removed. So I was wondering about which wire to tap off of....and boy oh boy there are a lot of brown wires. Well I can a couple leading to the horn, certainly not those and I can see a couple leading to the flasher relay so I don't think those are it. It's hard to tell but I can see that distinction of dark brown color for the left side turn signal, I definitely need to turn on my lights for this...However there are two light brown wires with crimped connections bolted to the coils but I don't think they are original because the coils are Emgo brand and definitely not original. Those brown wires are bolted to the inside(leads closet to the frame) while the orange and grey wires are bolted on the outside of the coils. Further those brown wires are then spliced together to a red with black stripe wire that looks to be original and maybe travels toward the kill switch.

I think maybe I should try to figure out how to take a picture of this and upload it.

[RDryan]

Ok so I just took the headlight off searching for that light brown wire leading to the kill switch and I see it there amongst a rats nest of wires. Well specifically it's grouped with a red wire with black stripe like the one I mentioned at the coils. I traced further and see these wires where I just unbolted the kill switch at the handle bars. Are you sure it's not the red wire with black stripe?

[m in sc]

well, youre right. it is the black/red wire. should be a double bullet female connection.  diagram here, courtesy of russ. I was thinking of the r5/.ds7, my bad. (which is actually red on those anyway )

look at the rd350 diagram here. its the same as the 250. http://www.2strokeworld.net/forum/index.php?topic=35.0

[RDryan]

Awesome, will do. This looks like the best wiring diagram I have seen yet.

Sorry for this delayed reply. I had to go to work shortly after posting but prior to that and without seeing your reply here I did make a quick phone call to the folks at HVC Cycles where I purchased the Vape Ignition as well as the local bike dealer where I bought the bike and get my annual inspections.

Regarding my local dealer, here in Ma. I guess I have to do this rather than taking the easy route with a kill switch to the coils and a battery eliminator. Simply because here in Ma. the cutoff date for bikes not needing a battery to power lights with the engine off is 1973. Go figure It was an option I explored as I thought it would be fun and cost savings to not have a battery.

So HVC Cycles did mention looking for the light brown wire that leads to the main switch (according to this wiring diagram) but in their words turns to the red wire which looks to be out going from the main switch to the rectifier. I did ask them about the red wire with black stripe leading to the kill switch, to me this seems like a better wire to tap off of but they seemed to like their suggestion better. The Vape directions go on to say the black wire at pin 85 is to be connected to a main switch terminal carrying voltage if switched on so upon that I would think the red wire from main switch to rectifier is a possibility... 

I'm not sure if there's really a difference except to say it's easy to source the light brown wire on the diagram but harder to distinguish it on the bike's harness. Not to mention it seems to be going to lights according to the wiring diagram. Much easier for me to take off old coils and put new coils and relay on and close the loop so to speak with the red and black wire that originally went to coils from kill switch.

I know that my riding habits have always had me killing power to the motor by turning the key off rather than flipping the kill switch from run to off. Not sure if any of that matters, just saying.

[m in sc]

well, it doesn't really matter either way. just boils down to preference at that point.

MY opinion is that IF the kill switch is still on the bike, might as well be useable.

id use the wire off the kill switch. 

[RDryan]

well, it doesn't really matter either way. just boils down to preference at that point.

MY opinion is that IF the kill switch is still on the bike, might as well be useable.

id use the wire off the kill switch. 

Yep, I agree. It really does seem like it's much easier to access and keep all wiring/connections more tidy. Speaking of which I would like to keep the relay accessible for a scenario where if I were to have a dead battery at least I could unplug that blue wire and ride home. For example if it's stuck to far underneath the gas tank then access could be an issue.

So I just called the local Yamaha dealer again today, speaking of availability of spark plugs and it looks like I will have to order those online....Well Vape  recommends a plug with a built in resister and HVC Cycles recommends the NGK br9hs being better suited for the hotter spark. So of course my dealer only stocks br8hs plugs. What are you thoughts on that?

To further this some more without outing anybody involved...both Vape and Economy Cycles don't believe in the machined keyway service that HVC recommends. I read online instructions regarding Vape warranty and they actually stated this will void the warranty. Wish I had known that. Up to the point of getting this ignition I made a substantial investment in stuff with HVC and some stuff with vendors on Ebay. I honestly didn't know much about Economy Cycles till it got to the point where I was doing online searches for carb jets and I had a great conversation with John at Economy Cycles, he really cares and he actually recommended I join this forum. He said give the machined keyway a try and see what you think of the timing but the woodruff key really is just a way to assemble the bike faster. It won't hold the rotor in place any better and it certainly limits timing adj. which upon seeing how this is timed makes sense. I sure hope whomever was making that cut was having a good day but there have been a lot of positive reviews on the machined keyway so there's that. I did notice some very small remnants of the cutting left over so I will have to take a surgical clean room approach, pun intended, in cleaning up the rotor prior to install. It will just be interesting to see how the rotor lines up with the pickup in relation to piston position when I get there.