Seems like the generator part of the install is straight forward connecting to the new coils but things get a bit confusing when connecting the new regulator/rectifier to the old wiring as well as how to maintain the neutral lamp function as the new generator is missing a wire to connect to that plastic shift cover on the shift drum.
Getting back to the regulator/rectifier it seems like I should crimp on some flat male connectors to the black and red wires of the old harness and simply connect those to the new regulator? Then simply leave the three white wires as well as the red wire with white stripe not connected? All these wires come from the old rectifier. However if I am correct in understanding all of this what do I do with the old regulator? By rights it can be removed?...and if so there is a red with white stripe wire, green wire, black wire, and brown wire all connecting to corresponding wire colors on the old wiring harness.
I did do a search on this forum but really haven't seen anything in regards to this kinda install. This post maybe redundant as I will be in contact with both HVC cycles as well as Economy Cycles but if anyone would like comment on the install with some experience it would be much appreciated.
As an aside I guess it would help for me to have a better understanding of how the wiring and components all play together but fwiw I taught myself how to set up the points and bought this setup after reading great things about it and really just suspect the points/timing not wanting to stay where I keep it set no matter how much I tighten the screws. So if there's a tip for that like loctite well it's too late as I already spent about 700 bucks on the Vape kit and trimmings so I just gotta make this set up work and in the long run I think I will have a more reliable bike for it.
I can help soon, I'll be back online tonight, trying to clear out all the shop jobs to leave Sat for the 2 stroke meet @Deals gap for next week.
Chuck
well the stock reg rectifier gets removed. the harder part is you need to ground the coil to kill the bike. this will involve a relay if you want to keep the rest of the harness stock and use the key/like switch. not hard at all. as far as the regulator, run the hot (red) lead to the battery and you're golden if you follow the rest of the diagram. get the kit from economy. I'll add more when I get home at dinner now
Hi, Supertune, m in sc. Thank you for your replies. I am totally patient. I got home about four hours ago from working and had to do the usual putting work away, cleaning and cooking and couch surfing,lol. I dig and sell clams, a back breaking form of self employment. Gotta be a slave to low tides and the weather conditions. If it's a nice day to mess with bikes then usually its a day to go clamming but at least I am gainfully employed to have money to spend on my bike. ;D
I really haven't done much to get this conversion/ install underway except buy all the stuff and really just scour the net to get a better understanding of what to do. Tomorrow I would like to remove my gas tank and the old generator see if I can get a better look at how this bike is wired. As of now I just took the Vape Ignition kit out of the box and have looked at the instructions in hand as well as online. Also just looking at my bike seat up and took the battery out and looking at the old regulator/rectifier. It really is an odd relic of electronic design from the past. It's amazing as it looks so hulking. These two seperate components. with so many wires.....I feel intimidated. Well with the paper instructions it just seems like the Vape folks are working with a later rd400 model with it's later one piece design regulator rectifier bolted to the side of the battery box above a fuse panel with a whole lot less wires. Basically just the wires that my rd250 uses for it's rectifier bolted to the bottom of the box.
Just for giggles, curiosity I took some stray wires and bolted them to my battery leads and touched one to the fender to negative battery lead and with the regulater unplugged I believe it was the brown wire terminal to the positive lead. So what happened was a spark at the fender and the round flasher switching on and off and the neutral lamp on the tach would light up. No real damage to anything but I guess I had this idea that the brown and green wires were leads going to the turn signals. Just goes to show my ignorance of how this stuff works. Well I will be patient because as an afterthought I just don't want to reverse polarity and burn something out.
Quote from: m in sc on April 28, 2019, 09:30:50 PM
well the stock reg rectifier gets removed. the harder part is you need to ground the coul to kill the bike. this will involve a relay if you want to keep the rest of the harness stock and use the key/like switch. not hard at all. as far as the regulator, run the hot (red) lead to the battery and you're golden if you follow the rest of the diagram. get the kit from economy. I'll add more when I get home at dinner now
What is the coul? So this kit did come with a relay, and the directions say that you don't have to use it if you want to simply plug in a kill switch were this blue wire from the relay is supposed to connect to the two in one coil unit that also comes with the kit.
So my understanding with the Vape regulator is two black wires running from their generator will take the AC current to the regulator from there simply connect the red wire to the red wire with a 15 amp fuse in line (it's actually the only fuse on my bike) going to the positive battery lead. Then I must take the brown wire and either ground it or attach it to the black wire that was running to the original rectifier. There's also a stray male tab bolted to the Vape regulator and according to the wiring diagram it looks as if its a sort of redundant ground if that make sense. but I suppose it wouldn't hurt to maybe crimp a female connector as I have a box of those to a wire and simply ground it to the frame as added insurance? I dunno maybe thats not really necessary as the instructions don't really say to do it.
yes, its a redundant ground. i used it on mine just because. you have the idea, your wiring plan sounds right, its pretty easy. IF you want key functionality, just use the blue wire off the coil to the other side of the normally closed lead on the relay, connect the ground to the other normally closed circuit, ground the -on the switching power on the relay, and hook up the brown coil power wire to the relay + switching post. key on, ungrounds coil, bike runs. hit kill switch on bars, bike dies but lights stay on.
you can use a dirtbike 1 wire kill on the bars as well to kill the bike, tied to the coil kill wire. just depends what you want to do.
-mark
Well I was just looking at a wiring diagram that's part of a 1973 rd250/350 service manual. So now it makes a bit more sense to me. There's a red wire with white stripe that connects the regulator to the rectifier. Then there is a black wire which is a ground running from the generator and a green wire also coming from the generator which I assume is transferring AC current to the regulator. Now the brown wire (that I was messing with mentioned earlier) running from the original regulator is going to a flasher relay as well as going all directions to what they call front and rear stop switches, the main switch and a warning lamp in the tachometer to name a few.
Like I say I guess I am just trying to make sense of it. Seems like with the new Vape generator I just gotta make sure I have good AC connection to the Vape regulator then simply get a good positive connection to the battery and a good ground and that's it.
So what confuses me?....is I would have to assume that the wiring harness will take this DC ouput from the Vape regulator and power lights and such? See how ignorant I am :umm: but thoughtful about it all ;D At least I found a service manual online that someone was kinda enough to post some time in the past, lol.
Quote from: m in sc on April 28, 2019, 10:39:06 PM
yes, its a redundant ground. i used it on mine just because. you have the idea, your wiring plan sounds right, its pretty easy. IF you want key functionality, just use the blue wire off the coil to the other side of the normally closed lead on the relay, connect the ground to the other normally closed circuit, ground the -on the switching power on the relay, and hook up the brown coil power wire to the relay + switching post. key on, ungrounds coil, bike runs. hit kill switch on bars, bike dies but lights stay on.
you can use a dirtbike 1 wire kill on the bars as well to kill the bike, tied to the coil kill wire. just depends what you want to do.
-mark
Hi Mark. I would like to retain the ignition switch and as well as the run/stop switch as original. So yeah I guess you had me guessing what coul, it just a mistype of coil. I'll tell ya if there was something more for me to look for I would spend till the end of time taking apart this bike to fine a coul...lol but that's me not knowing anything.
Just silly enough to buy this bike from the local bike shop a couple years ago with an oil leak and worn chain and sprockets and lean running issues. That's what's led to this. A few months ago I had the engine out of the bike with the cases split. Replaced seals and gaskets as well as fiber clutch plates, clutch cable, pistons and rings oh and the jewel...a new Vito's crank. Didn't need it but I just wanted the insurance. I really went all out with this bike but not before I enjoyed for almost three thousand miles till the oil leak got so bad along with the carbs I guess gumming up or maybe it was the timing. I dunno but she sat for almost a year till the past few months.
I tend to have typos...especially when using the phone. ???
yeah, the stock harness will be fine, no issues. and that brown wires is fine as well. take note though, there's a really dark brown wire, that's a turn signal wire, then a not quite as dark brown wire, thats switched power. the brown wire up by the coils is the one powered by the handlebar kill switch and 'not quite as dark brown', that's the one you should tap off of. :twocents:
the red/white wire just jumps between the regulator and rectifier on the stock harness. you wont be using it. :wave:
Quote from: m in sc on April 29, 2019, 07:39:49 AM
I tend to have typos...especially when using the phone. ???
yeah, the stock harness will be fine, no issues. and that brown wires is fine as well. take note though, there's a really dark brown wire, that's a turn signal wire, then a not quite as dark brown wire, thats switched power. the brown wire up by the coils is the one powered by the handlebar kill switch and 'not quite as dark brown', that's the one you should tap off of. :twocents:
the red/white wire just jumps between the regulator and rectifier on the stock harness. you wont be using it. :wave:
Hi, with a window of time away from work and a dry sunny day to wheel the bike out of my house ( yeah I'm single with no garage) I managed to get the gas tank removed. So I was wondering about which wire to tap off of....and boy oh boy there are a lot of brown wires. Well I can a couple leading to the horn, certainly not those and I can see a couple leading to the flasher relay so I don't think those are it. It's hard to tell but I can see that distinction of dark brown color for the left side turn signal, I definitely need to turn on my lights for this...However there are two light brown wires with crimped connections bolted to the coils but I don't think they are original because the coils are Emgo brand and definitely not original. Those brown wires are bolted to the inside(leads closet to the frame) while the orange and grey wires are bolted on the outside of the coils. Further those brown wires are then spliced together to a red with black stripe wire that looks to be original and maybe travels toward the kill switch.
I think maybe I should try to figure out how to take a picture of this and upload it.
Ok so I just took the headlight off searching for that light brown wire leading to the kill switch and I see it there amongst a rats nest of wires. Well specifically it's grouped with a red wire with black stripe like the one I mentioned at the coils. I traced further and see these wires where I just unbolted the kill switch at the handle bars. Are you sure it's not the red wire with black stripe?
well, youre right. it is the black/red wire. should be a double bullet female connection. diagram here, courtesy of russ. I was thinking of the r5/.ds7, my bad. (which is actually red on those anyway :bang: )
look at the rd350 diagram here. its the same as the 250. http://www.2strokeworld.net/forum/index.php?topic=35.0
Awesome, will do. This looks like the best wiring diagram I have seen yet.
Sorry for this delayed reply. I had to go to work shortly after posting but prior to that and without seeing your reply here I did make a quick phone call to the folks at HVC Cycles where I purchased the Vape Ignition as well as the local bike dealer where I bought the bike and get my annual inspections.
Regarding my local dealer, here in Ma. I guess I have to do this rather than taking the easy route with a kill switch to the coils and a battery eliminator. Simply because here in Ma. the cutoff date for bikes not needing a battery to power lights with the engine off is 1973. Go figure :bang: It was an option I explored as I thought it would be fun and cost savings to not have a battery.
So HVC Cycles did mention looking for the light brown wire that leads to the main switch (according to this wiring diagram) but in their words turns to the red wire which looks to be out going from the main switch to the rectifier. I did ask them about the red wire with black stripe leading to the kill switch, to me this seems like a better wire to tap off of but they seemed to like their suggestion better. The Vape directions go on to say the black wire at pin 85 is to be connected to a main switch terminal carrying voltage if switched on so upon that I would think the red wire from main switch to rectifier is a possibility...
I'm not sure if there's really a difference except to say it's easy to source the light brown wire on the diagram but harder to distinguish it on the bike's harness. Not to mention it seems to be going to lights according to the wiring diagram. Much easier for me to take off old coils and put new coils and relay on and close the loop so to speak with the red and black wire that originally went to coils from kill switch.
I know that my riding habits have always had me killing power to the motor by turning the key off rather than flipping the kill switch from run to off. Not sure if any of that matters, just saying.
well, it doesn't really matter either way. just boils down to preference at that point.
MY opinion is that IF the kill switch is still on the bike, might as well be useable.
id use the wire off the kill switch. :twocents:
Quote from: m in sc on April 30, 2019, 07:36:56 AM
well, it doesn't really matter either way. just boils down to preference at that point.
MY opinion is that IF the kill switch is still on the bike, might as well be useable.
id use the wire off the kill switch. :twocents:
Yep, I agree. It really does seem like it's much easier to access and keep all wiring/connections more tidy. Speaking of which I would like to keep the relay accessible for a scenario where if I were to have a dead battery at least I could unplug that blue wire and ride home. For example if it's stuck to far underneath the gas tank then access could be an issue.
So I just called the local Yamaha dealer again today, speaking of availability of spark plugs and it looks like I will have to order those online....Well Vape recommends a plug with a built in resister and HVC Cycles recommends the NGK br9hs being better suited for the hotter spark. So of course my dealer only stocks br8hs plugs. What are you thoughts on that?
To further this some more without outing anybody involved...both Vape and Economy Cycles don't believe in the machined keyway service that HVC recommends. I read online instructions regarding Vape warranty and they actually stated this will void the warranty. Wish I had known that. Up to the point of getting this ignition I made a substantial investment in stuff with HVC and some stuff with vendors on Ebay. I honestly didn't know much about Economy Cycles till it got to the point where I was doing online searches for carb jets and I had a great conversation with John at Economy Cycles, he really cares and he actually recommended I join this forum. He said give the machined keyway a try and see what you think of the timing but the woodruff key really is just a way to assemble the bike faster. It won't hold the rotor in place any better and it certainly limits timing adj. which upon seeing how this is timed makes sense. I sure hope whomever was making that cut was having a good day but there have been a lot of positive reviews on the machined keyway so there's that. I did notice some very small remnants of the cutting left over so I will have to take a surgical clean room approach, pun intended, in cleaning up the rotor prior to install. It will just be interesting to see how the rotor lines up with the pickup in relation to piston position when I get there.
YUP. all of that is correct. ive had mine 12 yrs, no keyway and it doesn't slip. :patriot: get some sleeving loctite, put a VERY small amount (like, a drop) on the shaft and tighten it down. also, make sure you have a nice thick washer under the retaining nut, the powerdynamo one sucks unless they changed it.
as far as the ability to get it home with dead battery... just make the connection from the blue wire to the coil a bit long where you can unplug it on the side of the road by reaching under the tank or the seat. you'll then have to stall the bike to kill it but in a pinch it beats waiting on a ride. (or reconnect the fitting with fear of getting a shock). Obviously, use insulated connectors.
pro tip: get autolite 4092 plugs, most auto parts stores carry them. its a 9 series plug and works just fine for these bikes. i run them in a few bikes.
:cheerleader:
OH that is a sweet pro tip! Or two. :nana:
Yep I listened to John and took notes, the next day I ordered every jet he recommended for when I do put on the y boot with K&N filter thus losing the stock airbox as well as DG pipes, probably not the best but they were on sale. I also got his hardware upgrade with the substantially more thick washer and longer bolt and I also ordered the rubber grommet as I really didn't want to reuse/ molest the original generator wiring to salvage that. Lastly I got the Vape puller from Economy Cycles. All recommended purchases stated on their site.
Quote from: RDryan on April 30, 2019, 10:25:54 AM
OH that is a sweet pro tip! Or two. :nana:
Yep I listened to John and took notes, the next day I ordered every jet he recommended for when I do put on the y boot with K&N filter thus losing the stock airbox as well as DG pipes, probably not the best but they were on sale. I also got his hardware upgrade with the substantially more thick washer and longer bolt and I also ordered the rubber grommet as I really didn't want to reuse/ molest the original generator wiring to salvage that. Lastly I got the Vape puller from Economy Cycles. All recommended purchases stated on their site.
Another tip, use a stock thin washer in place of the thick one from John's upgrade kit, then do a pre-install of the rotor and make sure the bolt goes all the way in! Very important to check!
Not all cranks are tapped deep enough!
(or have loctite in the bottom of the crank threads from previous install before) Crank threads are 7mm X 1.0 if you need to use tap.
I usually grind off 5-7mm off the threaded end then use the thick washer and Torque with loctite to 120 Inch-Lbs.
Chuck
If the bolt bottoms out then you have rotor slippage! This happens a lot...
oooh yeah, i remember you telling me that chuck. good point on the crank thread depth. :patriot:
Quote from: SUPERTUNE on May 02, 2019, 08:24:06 AM
Quote from: RDryan on April 30, 2019, 10:25:54 AM
OH that is a sweet pro tip! Or two. :nana:
Yep I listened to John and took notes, the next day I ordered every jet he recommended for when I do put on the y boot with K&N filter thus losing the stock airbox as well as DG pipes, probably not the best but they were on sale. I also got his hardware upgrade with the substantially more thick washer and longer bolt and I also ordered the rubber grommet as I really didn't want to reuse/ molest the original generator wiring to salvage that. Lastly I got the Vape puller from Economy Cycles. All recommended purchases stated on their site.
Another tip, use a stock thin washer in place of the thick one from John's upgrade kit, then do a pre-install of the rotor and make sure the bolt goes all the way in! Very important to check!
Not all cranks are tapped deep enough!
(or have loctite in the bottom of the crank threads from previous install before) Crank threads are 7mm X 1.0 if you need to use tap.
I usually grind off 5-7mm off the threaded end then use the thick washer and Torque with loctite to 120 Inch-Lbs.
Chuck
If the bolt bottoms out then you have rotor slippage! This happens a lot...
Hi, fellas, really glad I checked in! So first I wanna say, it works. She has a new electric heart and quite a spark at that. Well a funny thing happened after wiring it up and checking for spark with the battery connected I disconnected the battery and took it out of the bike and let it sit for a spell, easily twenty minutes...So I approach the bike and hit the positive battery terminal against the top of the battery box and got a visible, audible spark. Not too big but definitely surprised me. I wonder why?... Would the regulator hold a charge for that long even with no battery?
So first after being all wired up but without the relay attached but battery was connected I checked and got spark. Then I tried it without the battery and I can turn her over and still get spark. Amazing...So I tried with the relay attached and or igniton off stop switch off and maybe a complete stroke with the kickstart she still had spark but repeatedly turning her over and she quickly had no spark. So the relay works but it seems like she initially wants to carry spark. A nice blue zap of a spark.
I'm really just kinda smitten with it. It was a frustrating to get the generator wiring thru the rubber grommet and seat it's flange on the case, that hole is so small and Vape already put this neat 3/8 shielding over the five wires. Plus I reused the original blue neutral wire, took it off the old generator and kept it's bullet connector because I didn't have any and really have not much use to buy em. I guess I just felt cheap and didn't want to cut and splice and solder that.
Ironically regarding the rotor fastener. I currently have it pretty tight but I need to get a strap wrench to hold the rotor to get it to final torque spec. Haven't loctited it just there for the checking of things. but I did loctite the base plate and pick up screws. So John at Economy did recommend the blue loctite and 20 ft. lbs. is that too much?...because that's like twice as much,thats what I torque the oil drain bolt on my car too. My 1973 service manual states 135 inch lbs. for a 7mm bolt fwiw I did have the original generator on and off when but I can't recall ever tightening to that value. I actually never even used loctite with that old points setup, may have played a roll in my points plates moving just a bit? Too late now Well that hardware kit with the supplied thick washer I did measure about but not quite 5/8 of the bolt threading into the crank and I imagine once I get the strap wrench to hold the rotor I may be able to torque it to at least 120 inch lbs. Not sure it makes a difference but I have a new Vito's Crank.
Also wanted to add that I left the wood ruff key in and it seemed like to the naked eye that the leading edge of the ridges of the rotor when they meet with the edge of the pickup sensor the piston position is at 2 mm btdc. on both cylinders. I think I am just gonna try it with the wood ruff key in and see how she runs.
:clap:
sounds right, good job. The spark is from a capacitor that is in the newer versions of the regulator, this is a VERY good thing. it will hold a charge there. My old one didnt have one and it cooked a fusable link on my very expensive spa tach/speedo i had to send back to the UK to get reworked. :taz:
Sounds like you got it. TBH, i usually zap the rotor bolt down with a small impact and leave it. its the wrong way, yours is much more correct. :twocents:
Ha,ha I really can't wait to giver a go :celebrate: Too bad about all the rainy days we're getting here in NE but a good time to work on bikes. Yeah that new regulator really is something to marvel at, I also used the tab bolted to it and ground it to the frame. Fit right in were the old one was. I did have to drill a hole to mount the coil pack but the holes where the old Emgo coils were mounted to, one will do just fine for the relay. Easy access under the tank to yank the blue plug if I need to.
Further I wonder about the coil wires they're really long...in the Vape install instructions there's the grainy pic of RD400 with coil/regulater mount suggestions. So in the pic you can make out that they didn't cut back the spark plug wires. I don't know should I cut the wires shorter for a more tailored fit or just kinda wrap and tuck up under the tank? Is there a difference in length of spark plug wires in terms of losing resistence?
TRIM THEM, YOU;RE FINE. THEY ARE A MILE LONG
I believe Powerdynamo advised against using a strap wrench to hold the flywheel, as the magnets are bonded (glued) to the inside of the flywheel. Scroll to the bottom of this web page:
http://www.powerdynamo.de/eng/kb/grip.htm
I've started including an extra washer in addition to the thick one for the bolt depth, had one come in with a Vito's crank that had that issue. and ps the vito's RD cranks use the larger small end bearing, like the RZ.
I always take off the primary clutch cover and use a large crescent wrench tightened up on the crank nut to hold and torque rotor bolt...little more work, but done right.
NO, 20ft-lbs is way too much.
Use my spec.
Chuck
I'm at 10 ft-lbs. Up to 135 in-lbs would be ok I think too.
Thats just under 12 ft-lbs.
C
Quote from: m in sc on May 02, 2019, 10:39:52 AM
:clap:
sounds right, good job. The spark is from a capacitor that is in the newer versions of the regulator, this is a VERY good thing. it will hold a charge there. My old one didnt have one and it cooked a fusable link on my very expensive spa tach/speedo i had to send back to the UK to get reworked. :taz:
Thanks for reminding me, I got lucky once already..
I like that Vape tool, I wonder if I could make one? I see I will have to do this right. I suppose I could pull the cover since I don't have the tool. Is it ok to reseal it with the old gasket? The last time I pulled that cover it was bonded to the crankcase side and seemed like the gasket was very well intact...this being a recent new gasket I imagine my odds of re using it to be good?
The Yamaha spec on that bolt is 18 ft lbs, I run them at 20, no issues. I realize its on the upper end but these rotors can tend to slip if the taper's not engaged. The bolt I include in the kit will take the 18-20ft lbs (I've tested them), won't snap and does a great job of holding the rotor.
Making a peg spanner is pretty easy, if you have access to a drill press and hand files or angle grinder.
Quote from: Dvsrd on May 03, 2019, 12:47:48 PM
Making a peg spanner is pretty easy, if you have access to a drill press and hand files or angle grinder.
Yeah I thought about that and that's probably what I should've done. So today with the aid of the forum I took into consideration everyone's input and here's how it went. Since I don't have a drill press never mind a proper piece of metal stock to make a peg spanner out of I decided to pull the clutch cover and lock up the primary gear like Chuck suggested. Had a bit of a struggle getting the cover off because I used that Yamabond on the crankase side of the gasket and boy does it hold...She finally gave free and the gasket came out of it in pretty good shape except for a couple minor breaks, we hope. Took my time with the razor cleaning off all that dried sticking Yamabond. Cleaned all mating surfaces to let em dry. Then I locked up the primary gear with a rag and proceeded to fasten/torque down that rotor bolt with the Economy Cycle hardware kit. There's a split type lock washer, one of three washers along with the longer bolt in the kit and it didn't work so well. For what every reason as I was tightening the bolt the split washer wanted to expand at the split and it dug into the face the bolt leaving burrs on the bolt. I just kept tightening it and really wasn't getting 10 pounds of torque nevermind 20 because that washer wanted to eat into the bolt. No big deal though. I just loosened it all up substituted the split lock washer for the supplied Vape washer. I figure with the additional length of the bolt in the hardware kit even with the three washers in there there is still much more threads engaged than with the shorter Vape bolt. Crept up to 17 ft. lbs. of torque and really it felt very tight at that. Could you put 20 ft. lbs. of torque on it? I suppose but it felt very tight creeping up to 17 plus I gooped a generous amount of the blue loctite on it. I'd be surprised if the bolt were to come loose or even the rotor slips.
So I took my time with it and did the best I could with what I had. Probably would have been nice to have a proper holding tool as I kinda created a lot of extra work for myself but I could see how holding that rotor with a strap wrench may actually put enough force on it to damage the magnets within. I got the idea from this You tuber who goes by the name Lucky Yogi. She made a neat video series on this rd350 bike build and her partner used this rubber strap wrench in one the videos to hold it. Seemed like a good idea and probably ok to do but you never know and after seeing that Vape tool link it definitely made me think better of it.
sounds like you got it. suggestion? put witness line across the bolt to the rotor, that way if you ever have a running issue you can visually see if the rotor has slipped. im 98% sure you got it though. :clap:
Quote from: m in sc on May 03, 2019, 10:22:02 PM
sounds like you got it. suggestion? put witness line across the bolt to the rotor, that way if you ever have a running issue you can visually see if the rotor has slipped. im 98% sure you got it though. :clap:
That's a great idea, I'll do it. Noticed you did that reading the HPI ignition thread and that's a trick looking magneto. How do you like that compared to the Vape?
the both have their benefits. the powerdynamo/vape has much stronger charging output, so for running other stuff, like a stepper tach, constant lights at idle, and the zeeltronic ignition box, i think its better (if not just easier). the HPI is definitely lighter, simpler. however, it has 60w of output vs the 200w of the vape, so you have to get creative to run a full compliment of electronics.
i think the vape is more user friendly and has a big flywheel, so it helps keep the rps up during regular rides between shifts, whereas the HPI is so small, winds up (and down) much faster. installation difficulty between the 2, in my opinion, is about the same. i think the spark output is about equal. i'm running one of each both on ported and piped motors with big carbs, etc, and neither lacks.
if you are looking for a super minimal build id say the hpi is the best option, the powerdynamo is good for that as well, but has more'creature comforts' and is def more flexible, for lack of a better term.
hope that makes sense.
i'll also mention this for posterity:
if you dont want to delve into the wiring as much, the dyna that vintage smoke sells is absolutely bulletproof, i have one on my r5. its def good for those looking to run basically a stock setup. these would eb restorers, or stockish bikes with pipes and some light work done.
(old guy mode: on)
you could daily any of these or win races with any of these systems. its nice to be in an era where we have options, unlike 20 years ago having to hack up kz and cb dynas systems or try to resurrect old newtronics setups from the 80's. (old guy mode off) :nanana:
Hi all, thanks for the help and sorry for this delayed reply. I probably should've replied sooner but I kinda felt like I didn't have much to add without getting off topic. So I did get the bike running with it's new ignition and I ran into more problems, jetting problems. That was a week ago. Between my work schedule and the wet weather we've been having in New England it's a long process but hey at least I can rule out ignition regarding my bikes tuning/running state.
Now to get a bit off topic, I made a lot of changes at once which probably didn't help but seemed to make sense. Along with the Vape Ignition I added a set of DG chambers and ditched the stock airbox with K&N filter for just the y boot and K&N filter combo. Found out that 170 mains were just not enough for the extra air and since I really didn't know as it's my first experience jetting carbs....I actually went the wrong way playing with leaner jets/settings of the slide needle. As of now the bike runs great with 170 mains and the slide jet needle in the 4th richest position. However I had to put the airbox back in to achieve this current running state. I actually think I could go even higher on the main as the plugs look a bit too newish clean and lean. I did just receive more jets in the mail yesterday 180,185, and 190 sizes. I would really like to try to rejet again without the airbox but I wonder if 190 will be rich enough? Any thoughts on this?....appreciated.
It's a pretty standard setup FWIW. 1975 RD250B, Vape Ignition, DG exhaust and K&N filter attached directly to y boot. Stock otherwise with oem style carb intakes no crossover or reed valve spacers and no special porting. I do have Boyesen Reeds but I retained the stock metal stops to limit the reeds opening.
190-200 should be about right, probably wind up one lean on the needle when all is said and done. :twocents:
Thanks, I'll try that. It's amazing to me just how much of a jump in main sizes it takes to get it right.
and this was at least for me one of those things that's hard to understand just reading a carb manual or talking about. I had a friend that's got experience racing dirtbikes come over and he just merely looked at the plugs and knew I was going the wrong way with jetting sizes. Honestly I feel like the K&N without the airbox is the way to go for more heavily modified bikes but I'm not sure there's much more performance to be had with mine. It seems like it runs really good with the stock airbox. I dunno I just feel funny not trying to make the new air filter work though.
Oh yeah btw I got those 4290 Autolite plugs and was wondering what should I set the spark plug gaps at? I actually have em set at stock specs. between .5 to .6mm actually closer to .5mm
i run mine at .038"
regarding the y boot, i have one on my stock r5, it runs great. just jet accordingly it will be good. :patriot:
Quote from: m in sc on May 14, 2019, 10:05:34 AM
i run mine at .038"
regarding the y boot, i have one on my stock r5, it runs great. just jet accordingly it will be good. :patriot:
Ha,ha that's good to hear. :celebrate: Well laughing at the emoji, our options here are endless :techno:
It's funny my dirtbike buddy asked me about the gap I had and he said to open it up to .030", he mentioned it really needs to be bigger to get a fatter spark. Or I guess getting the most out of it. Not sure why that makes a difference but I do know that both the Autolite plugs and the NGK plugs come new outta the box with something like a .025" to .026"ish gap and I was just doing what the manual recommended but maybe that just makes the plugs foul easier?
the autolites are gapped for older cars with shit ignition systems. a wider gap will, if the system can produce it, give a hotter spark for sure. remember, the spark plug is overcoming resistance to spark. therefore, it will take more energy to (literally) bridge that gap, when it does that greater energy is released and your hand is numb for 10 minutes. :eek: :science:
Awesome, I totally didn't know that. So I am essentially under utilizing the capabilities of this newer more modern ignition system. Glad I asked. :good: :rock2:
So today I decided I would try to wire up the one wire kill switch and that was pretty easy to do but I also wanted to add this two prong toggle switch I got from Advanced Auto Parts as a hidden kill switch that I would have mounted inside the battery box. Not sure if it matters but it says it's 12volts and 35amps made by Motorcraft. I thought that if I had the hidden switch basically wired between the blue wire running from the coils and the one wire kill switch I mounted on the handle bar then it was as simple as that but it doesn't work. I guess I must being doing something wrong here. Any ideas?
On second thought supposing no one cares to entertain my "wire a hidden kill switch for dummies" query that is OK....cause I gotta another problem with no easy work around. Thing is when I acquired this Vape Ignition I also purchased this fancy pantsy "battery eliminator" by Excel. So I just took the bike for a ride and noticed my lights don't work, I guess that the battery eliminator just doesn't store enough juice to keep lights on? I dunno what to say except it was recommended by the RD guys at HVC and I know I got the leads hooked up correctly as I'm not that dumb but it just doesn't seem to work. Maybe that's something silly too as even the neutral light won't come on and the thing is I really wouldn't have bothered to go battery less if it wasn't for the fact that I got this "battery eliminator". I dunno I guess it's a moot point anyways because my local bike shop told me that too pass Ma. state inspection bikes need to power lights without the motor running. I don't wanna give up but I'm thinking having the battery is probably the way to go as I'm not racing the bike or looking to build a feather weight machine.
You have to have a battery to have lighting without engine running, for a superlight setup, the li-po's are the way to go, but pricey around $70-$90 in a motorcycle sizes battery.
You could go with a RC car or drone battery also for a bit cheaper... but not sure how they will get along with the charging system?
Chuck
regarding the hidden kill, all you need is a 2 pole switch where in one position, it grounds the blue wire, then when off, it leaves the blue wire open.
fwiw, nick found a tiny battery that will work , its like HALF the size of the alarm battery i like to run. this might be the ticket. I'll see if i can track the number down. :twocents:
update, parts unlimited number is 2113-0217, john at EC sells em i think as well. Thanks to Nick for the info. I think he will sell them as well.
:twocents:
New on here and happy the forum is back up. I am two weeks out on finishing my RD up. The battery question was something I researched as well. Was going to use a 12V nickle metal hydrid (rc car) battery because of size and weight but came to the conclusion it probably would not like the charging system very well. Found that a lithium iron phosphate battery is much more tolerant of over voltage and has a better life expectancy. The one I ordered was twice the size of the RC batt but less weight. got mine from Bioenno Power. I think it is actually for a solar setup.
thats good to know.
as an fyi, i had one of the alarm batteries in my rd, lasted 8+ years with an mzb/powerdynamo/vape.( i just changed it last year) I like the smaller ones if i can use them, but if you have the room, the alarm batteries work just fine as well. zero charging issues. :twocents:
Hmm it's interesting that you could get away with batteries small enough for an rc car. I remember having fun with those as a kid. I almost all of em, rc10, Tamiya fox, grasshopper, frog. A buddy of mine had the wild one. Well anyway I put my honda ruckus scooter battery back in and let there be light ;D
Put a nice ride on her today in and out of around town maybe 50 miles and created another dilemma. Well I put a good little 50% of door knob size dent right on the bottom of one of my chambers whilst riding out of my driveway where theres this dip and rock meets the street. Kinda a bummer and the makings of another thread on how to remove dents I imagine. :umm:...but you really have to bend over to see it and I just love the sound coming from those dg pipes. ;D
Do you have a Batteries Plus store nearby?
https://www.batteriesplus.com/battery/sla-sealed-lead-acid/12?page=1&perPage=50
thats the alarm battery, every home depot and lowes have them as well, near the lighting aisle. :twocents:
I'll add a couple of pics and tips also to help the future installs... (RD250/350 basically the same bike)
I use some Permatex Ultra Gray or Black silicone gasket maker I mush in on the back of the stator wires to support them and keep them from vibration, as I've chased my tail before from these rubbing to bare wires and shorting out.
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/guillermosrd400videos/large/20171221_194205.jpg)
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/guillermosrd400videos/large/20171203_154809.jpg)
I also have had to grind the back of the stator plate on some engines cases to clear and sit flat.
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400/large/20180901_180010.jpg)
Another tip I'm now doing on battery system setups when using a relay for the kill switch with stock wiring and ignition switch.
I'm running some extra blue wire from kill coil lead back to the side cover with a bullet connector for a emergency bypass of the relay to have the bike run with no battery or ignition to get home on with blown fuses, dead battery, bad ignition switch, wiring problems and or losing your keys and needing to get home. But, this means no running lights also and have to use in gear with brakes on to stall out engine to kill it.
This is on a RD400 where the relay is mounted under the tank right behind the steering neck.
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400/large/20190517_145230.jpg)
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400/large/20190517_145242.jpg)
On RD350 I mount the relay under the rear tank support, so access to the blue wire on the relay can just be unplugged by lifting up the seat.
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/rddocumentstuff/large/20190403_194834.jpg)
On RD350's I weld a tab on the frame to mount the coil. I do grind a little clearance at the gusset at the bottom of the coil also
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/rddocumentstuff/large/20190402_204138.jpg)
On RD400 I bolt in the coil from the right side gusset with a spacer to center the coil in the frame.
In this pic it's hard to see that other than the 8mm nut at the bottom of the coil...You can see the gold bolt where the relay is mounted in front of the coil.
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400/large/20190517_144419.jpg)
Of course you should always verify timing with a timing light and set marks from a piston dial indicator marked on the flywheel and a pointer.
Couple of pics...
Chuck
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400/large/20180915_142639.jpg)
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400/large/20180915_142557.jpg)
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/dansawyerrd350/large/20190404_131710.jpg)
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400/large/20180915_142649.jpg)
Video
https://imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400?p=248&n=1&m=-1&c=3&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=3 (https://imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400?p=248&n=1&m=-1&c=3&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=3)
https://imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400?p=249&n=1&m=-1&c=3&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=3 (https://imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400?p=249&n=1&m=-1&c=3&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=3)
Quote from: SUPERTUNE on June 09, 2019, 11:55:58 PM
I also have had to grind the back of the stator plate on some engines cases to clear and sit flat.
I thought I was crazy years ago installing mine.
When tightening the stator plate adapter ring I noticed the stator plate flexing outward, it was hitting the seal casting of the case before the adapter ring was bottoming.
I modified some washer spacers into a "D" shape to space the whole setup out a couple mm's.
I guess some engine cases are different than others.
I'm planning (procrastinating) rewiring my whole bike, but when I do I'll chuck up the stator plate and cut it to clear the cases.