What price range are you seeing for Crank rebuilding? what is included or what options are there and at what additional cost?
Thanks in advance for any information.
This varies by who's doing it. Most crank rebuilders charge labor for the rebuild. The parts are extra. Either you source the parts, or they can.
Bill Bune Enterprises was around $200 labor, but they are increasing their rate this year.
Ed Toomey is similarly priced.
John Ritter (a member on the forum here and who I recommend highly) advertises his crank rebuilds here. https://www.2strokeworld.net/forum/index.php?topic=4359.0
Do believe Ed Erlenbach does cranks.
Economy Cycle does rebuilds as well (also another high recommendation).
There's others as well.
Parts are your biggest price difference. Rods, bearing choice, crank work itself. Like lightening, welding, etc all adds up. A bare bones rebuild... Well, that runs parts and labor. Not to mention shipping.
For shipping: I use parcelmonkey.com as a shipping broker. I actually got a box with heads and top end shipped back home from Mr. Ritter, next day air for around $45 once. I didn't pick that, it was done automatically.
Thank you, I see where the pricing is and I understand the parts side.
Do any of the builders provide you with the status of the crank? (condition of the crank based on pressure required to press the pins)
"Do any of the builders provide you with the status of the crank? (condition of the crank based on pressure required to press the pins)"
They may if you ask nicely... but when he stops working on your crank to call you, while you're paying him by the hour, to tell you it took 3750# to break the pin... what judgment call are you gonna make over the phone. I've built lots of cranks and I don't think can you make decisions about whether or not is usable, whether or not it has to be welded, over the phone and if someone wanting a "status report" on, it it is someone trying to second guess my abilities as crank rebuilder and resent it.
... but maybe that's just me
I understand not interrupting the job, I was thinking of it as a report on the condition as part of the re-build service. "this is the last rebuild you should do on this crank"
You can use Suzuki lower rod bearings that have 18 rollers compared to the 14 Yamaha bearing have.
any reputable builder will tell you after they tear it apart if they were 'too loose'
Who needs a press to rebuild a crank
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4927zMC18yg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4927zMC18yg)
Thanks for all of the input, I am well aware of the parts and process, contemplating offering the service. I have done my own cranks and limited my outside work to a couple of racing buddies.
If I was in the market for a rebuild Id be interested in a service offering bearing options like Koyo 8 ball, Suzuki big end bearing and maybe even the small end bearings iwt an extra roller (cant remember what they come from at the moment). Sure I could supply the parts myself, but its so much more convenient and eliminates delays caused by possibly ordering incorrect parts or supply chin issues.
That's what I run in the 400 although I do have a personal stash of the silver-plated titanium cage TZ G bearings. I will work on sourcing the better bearings and the "long" brand rods. It's hard to get the Pinned bearings, the race motors are hard on the bottom ends, spinning an outer race is never a good thing
FYI, if anyone needs a labyrinth seal, the one that Yambits sells for $26 is an exact copy of the real thing, that is no longer available. I bought one and measured up and down, felt the fit on the crank and cases, and all was good. It looks just like the OEM one too.
Getting bearings is a problem for some bikes.
If you could supply a service that does machine work on standard bearings to have pins, grooves, and areas removed for seals.
Suzuki stopped selling main and lower rod bearings for the GS1000/1100/1150....
Yamaha has stopped selling middle main bearings for the TZ250 4DP/TZR250 SP/SPR...
RGV250 VJ23 has a seal built into the one outer bearing...NLA...
Same with NSR's...
If you could do machine work on the bearings, you would have business for sure.
The bearing side is beyond my scope, although if I can develop a source I may carry/stock the correct bearings for RD/TZ cranks (once I get setup)
Tony Doukos has the ability to do some machining on bearings but the best source is worldwide Bearings, they can source and build specific bearings. They have the knowledge and the capability to provide specialized bearings and have the number off the bearing you need, the Yamaha / Suzuki / Honda part number will not get them what they need.
Doukos racing / Banshee superstore has everything needed for RZ350/Banshee crank's and transmission including trick ceramic bearing kits. he also provides custom-configured crankshafts. or custom application and racing RZ/Banshee cranks Tony has great options and builds 100% quality racing and stock cranks. He also has offset sprockets and bearing supports for wide-wheel applications.
www.bansheesuperstore.com
I am interested in building RD and TZ cranks, and any other cranks that are within my scope (2-stroke and 4-stroke singles, etc.). I have all the tools and experience. I have been doing it for 45 years. just need to get my stuff set up again. I have special fixtures and jigs I built to minimize stress on the disassembly and rebuild / trueing (I built the jigs - fixtures Lyn Garland used). I use ground shim blocks to set the individual crank widths dead on spec with no back and forth. I then assemble the two halves after they are trued to spec. this greatly reduces the stress put on the pins and pin holes during the building process. I can also rebuild a single side when there is a seizure (if someone is on a tight budget).
Normally a crank comes out of the fixture within the factory spec of .002" runout and dead on widths, I can normally true to a runout of .0003 or less. I can also weld the crank and rebuild previously welded cranks. If I see a low-pressure press fit indicating a crank is at the end of its life I can weld it so it to keep it stable.
I do not currently have a phasing fixture that would let me re-build an RZ crank center section, they are not keyed in the center like RD's/ TZ's. Also the cost of a new hotrods RZ/Banshee crank makes rebuilding more costly than just buying a 100% brand new crank.
My jigs are not structured to do a 4-cylinder crank but I have rebuilt a Skitsu 500cc Yamaha triple, it had a Hockle crank, it came out 0/0/0. I have not done a Kawasaki triple.
I know chuck quenzler had good luck getting bearings from vxb, and if memory serves correct he could get them w the clip groove, but we had that conversation maybe 10? yrs ago. I know he got some for me when i did my crank (since he had them on hand) just .02
https://www.vxb.com/
Quote from: m in sc on January 04, 2023, 11:04:10 AM
I know chuck quenzler had good luck getting bearings from vxb, and if memory serves correct he could get them w the clip groove, but we had that conversation maybe 10? yrs ago. I know he got some for me when i did my crank (since he had them on hand) just .02
https://www.vxb.com/
Thanks for the heads up I avoid cheap Chinese bearings......... I will check with them. on a couple of my race motors and the wheels I am going to try out the ceramic bearings (BUT DAMN ARE THEY PROUD OF THEM!!!!)
VXB is my go to. If you need something truly special, World Wide Bearings can often help.
https://www.worldwidebearings.com
Full disclosure, when we built engines Dave at WWB sponsored me, but we only crossed paths because he was able to get me stuff nobody else could. And I'll be honest, we absolutely smoked some of his bearings. The ceramic main bearings turned to powder and we put a piston through the read valves. Not even recyclable that engine. Not pretty. Nothing we are talking about here is on that level of performance though.
I've had VXB bookmarked for quite a while. I believe I saved it because of a discussion and recommendation here years ago, (may have been Chuck?). In any case, I just noticed they're in Anaheim, not too far from me!
For what it's worth: Way back when I was sponsored by a bearing company you've never heard of. The primary of the company was a nice guy that worked at Canada Bearing, till he was made redundant, when the internet took over and you didn't need an engineer on site to sell bearings, so he and his sons opened a bearing house and even had their own trade name.
When I asked him about the quality and durability of asian bearing he told me that with the tolerances necessary to BUILD a bearing: if you can build a bearing to spec, it's easy to make it go round and round. Building the bearing is the hard part.
I used his bearings in gen sets, alternators and electric motors, which is one of the worst environments for a bearing (roller bearings don't like an electrical charge, it does weird things to the lubricant and changes the base metals), for years and years without issue.
... but I'll still pay more for a "name brand"....
A few years ago I was was looking for some 7305 roller bearings for a TZ crank. $200 CDN from Yamaha... IF they have stock. They didn't
Some of the banshee sites sell that bearing as an "up grade" (it's not) and I found a site in the south west states that was advertising a SKF 7305N... so I called SKF Canada to get some, and was told SKF doesn't do that bearing.
HUH?? There is picture on this guy's website of a SKF 7305N, so I sent a link of the picture to the guy at SKF.
The guy at SKF looked into it and IF they made that bearing it would be made in their plant in Northern Italy, and he checked the computer files that went back to 1986 or '87 and that plant hasn't made any 7305N bearings.
In the 50 years I have been screwing with 2T bikes, I have installed the cheapest bearing or the bearing that was available at the time, many, many times and I have seldom seen a spun bearing that wasn't run without oil. The issue is oil, not the bearing...(almost) every time
A dry $65 SKF explorer will burn up just as fast as a dry $13 Nachi
Quote from: bitzz on January 04, 2023, 05:35:49 PM
A few years ago I was was looking for some 7305 roller bearings for a TZ crank. $200 CDN from Yamaha... IF they have stock. They didn't
Some of the banshee sites sell that bearing as an "up grade" (it's not) and I found a site in the south west states that was advertising a SKF 7305N... so I called SKF Canada to get some, and was told SKF doesn't do that bearing.
HUH?? There is picture on this guy's website of a SKF 7305N, so I sent a link of the picture to the guy at SKF.
The guy at SKF looked into it and IF they made that bearing it would be made in their plant in Northern Italy, and he checked the computer files that went back to 1986 or '87 and that plant hasn't made any 7305N bearings.
I am completely shocked, I would never has guessed that a Chinese company would pirate the SKF logo and stamp it on their bearings and ship them in branded SKF boxes. :umm:
the bearings int he 70s were no better than what we can get today at a mid level, so im ok with vxb bearings, havent killed one yet.
Quote from: Vintagetz on January 04, 2023, 05:54:23 PM
[I am completely shocked, I would never has guessed that a Chinese company would pirate the SKF logo and stamp it on their bearings and ship them in branded SKF boxes. :umm:
SHOCKED... well not that shocked.
Like... I get the counterfeit market, don't like it, but I get it. They're making and selling counterfeit drugs and surgical equipment so why not bearings too?
... but WHY some obscure bearing that isn't very popular? SKF hasn't sold one in 35 years... but some asian company is gonna magically make money? Cmon... do some market research
I bought some of those bearings from Roger at WickedATV. They said "TZ350" on them. That is all. Now THAT'S a counterfeit bearing I can use.
Here's what Yambits sells for a center crank bearing. It says Koyo, made in Japan, no groove but the center bearings don't use a groove, and somehow they drilled the race and installed a roll pin. $18.04
(https://i.ibb.co/2SQPt9S/koto.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0KSZM7K)
(https://i.ibb.co/JtspjNB/koto1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mTcy5mD)
Yambits got me the main bearings I needed, and Yamaha had both rod bearings for my RZV. Bill Bune did the rebuild. Genuine Koyo, not Chinese...There were some newly made RZ cranks being built at the time I did mine, for almost the same price as I had in my rebuild. But questionable crank material quality and Chinese bearings, were not going into something I planned on using as intended.
Fondseca got me my TZ 4DP/3XV2 center main bearings for two cranks , that they machined to fit the center crank seal.
Before
(https://www.advrider.com/f/attachments/img_1711-jpg.1519923/)
After
(https://www.advrider.com/f/attachments/7bdc9119-17d5-45eb-ac74-bc79a6227cde-jpeg.1553144/)
Beautiful parts.
If it helps, I sent a RD400 crank for an estimate. Labor is $375 to rebuild, but the estimate is much less. To rebuild with 4 new roller bearings, both rod bearings, rod thrust washers and both solid pins, it is $651. Crank Works is busy and wait time might be long.