So I made a previous thread about this when I was putting the engine together, but didn't really get to the bottom of it. I decided to just put the thing together and see if it would work, since it was so hard to determine if it was working while the engine is on the bench. I have the bike all together now, and it only has two gears, it will go into first with difficulty and then into second again with difficulty, it makes a noise when I pull the clutch, I think the clutch must be rubbing on the inside of the case. I cannot get any gears beyond second even while riding the bike.
This mirrors my issues I had on the bench, obviously this is a disappointment since the engine runs great and this setback will most certainly mean the bike is not going to be finished before the snow falls this year.
The bikes looks nice at least?
(https://i.imgur.com/rqWSYq1l.jpg)
Here are my photos of the transmission internals from before. Yes I did correct the star wheel before I assembled it. I used all the parts from a 1975 rd250 which was a working transmission.
(https://i.imgur.com/fS7VzIQl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/JIMNeUal.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/aawC9nll.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/e9EmIp7l.jpg)
I think you might have either a shift fork in wrong, or one of the dog's is backwards. When my bike wouldn't shift past second it was one of the gears in backwards.
Quote from: Striker1423 on October 04, 2021, 09:46:47 PM
I think you might have either a shift fork in wrong, or one of the dog's is backwards. When my bike wouldn't shift past second it was one of the gears in backwards.
I guess I'll just have to take it all apart and mess around with the forks again and try them in all the positions possible, I doubt it's a gear issue because I never disassembled the gears from the shafts, I directly swapped them from the case they were in. My main mistake was not taking photos of the rd transmission fork/drum assembly and how it was assembled. Had I known how hard it would be to find any info photos or documentation for how it's supposed to go back together, I would have.
did you swap the shift shaft as well? they are different.
my trick is always set the drum to neutral, then drop the trans in. it should spin free. if not, then its wrong.
Quote from: m in sc on October 04, 2021, 10:49:32 PM
did you swap the shift shaft as well? they are different.
my trick is always set the drum to neutral, then drop the trans in. it should spin free. if not, then its wrong.
Yes, all the parts were from the RD, the R5 only has three forks. It did spin free but it doesn't shift past 2nd.
Where the drum is in neutral, that kinda cut out area of the detent wheel should be on the detent right? Because that's what I did.
Well, I took the engine completly apart again, I found quite a bit of metal shavings which looked like aluminum in the case, I have read somewhere that Rd clutches can hit the r5 case and you need to grind down areas of the case but I can't find any damage anywhere to indicate where the shavings have come from, there is no damage to the inside of the case or the clutch, although there was a noise when the clutch was disengaged which is what made me think it was hitting in the first place. As far as a shifting issue goes, I didn't see anything interesting, and it's now bare cases again.
I'm really at a loss here and have no clue what the issue could be. I've looked at as many photos diagrams and videos of rd internals as I can find and I don't see anything out of place.
I will likely be putting the 5 speed trans back in it with all the r5 parts and hoping that it works, since there were no issues with the transmission before. Maybe this r5 just wasn't meant to have six speeds.
I took some photos of the parts.
(https://i.imgur.com/bTpeIXvm.jpg) I never took any of these gears off and so it's impossible that they are somehow wrong, these came from a working rd250 trans.
(https://i.imgur.com/UMBamuXm.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ka6MhRQh.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/J5es2PTh.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/YgOp06ch.jpg)
No damage in here at all and yet it was chattering when I pulled the clutch.
(https://i.imgur.com/dcMZ1Bwh.jpg)
I've only had my RD400c apart, but uppon reassembly I could shift it through all gears (turning the input to help mesh of the dogs). Your photo of the assembled trans seems to show two gears with dogs meshed with each other. That doesn't seem right. I suggest you get an RD250 manual (Yamaha, not Haynes or Chilton/Clymer) and assemble the gears as it shows as well as the dogs. If the manual is any good, you should be able to get it together properly. Illustrated parts diagrams can help, too. I just finished assembling an XR100R trans for a friend from a jumble of two sets. Manual and parts diagrams were invaluable.
:agree: I see it, too. On the mainshaft, there appears to be two gears facing each other, their dogs engaged. It's that way in the assembled-in-the-case picture, too.
the clutch basket spacer washers behind the clutch are different thicknesses between rd and r5. make sure you have proper clearnce there. the primary gear and clutch gear should be flush to each other. but, before that, you can put the trans in the lower part of the case and turn the drum to check gear engagement & operation before fully assembling. like said, put in N, drop gears in (yes its the part at 6 o'clock in the pic). if it doesnt work, check the shift forks arent swapped, common issue. you'll get it.
:gentleman:
You say that it will only go into 1st and 2nd yet in your assemble picture it is shifted into 4th. I have a 250 case and trans apart that I could take pics but yours looks like everything is assembled right.
Quote from: m in sc on October 05, 2021, 09:26:06 AM
the clutch basket spacer washers behind the clutch are different thicknesses between rd and r5. make sure you have proper clearnce there. the primary gear and clutch gear should be flush to each other. but, before that, you can put the trans in the lower part of the case and turn the drum to check gear engagement & operation before fully assembling. like said, put in N, drop gears in (yes its the part at 6 o'clock in the pic). if it doesnt work, check the shift forks arent swapped, common issue. you'll get it.
:gentleman:
This^
Shift forks are confusing on these as I have found. They WILL go together wrong. Most likely culprit. I didn't see anything wrong in the trans. As you stated, it was never taken apart by you, so...
Quote from: 1976RD400C on October 05, 2021, 09:35:39 AM
You say that it will only go into 1st and 2nd yet in your assemble picture it is shifted into 4th. I have a 250 case and trans apart that I could take pics but yours looks like everything is assembled right.
Yeah, i took that photo before I realized i had installed the shift drum not in neutral.
Quote from: Striker1423 on October 05, 2021, 09:47:44 AM
Quote from: m in sc on October 05, 2021, 09:26:06 AM
the clutch basket spacer washers behind the clutch are different thicknesses between rd and r5. make sure you have proper clearnce there. the primary gear and clutch gear should be flush to each other. but, before that, you can put the trans in the lower part of the case and turn the drum to check gear engagement & operation before fully assembling. like said, put in N, drop gears in (yes its the part at 6 o'clock in the pic). if it doesnt work, check the shift forks arent swapped, common issue. you'll get it.
:gentleman:
This^
Shift forks are confusing on these as I have found. They WILL go together wrong. Most likely culprit. I didn't see anything wrong in the trans. As you stated, it was never taken apart by you, so...
Hmm, when you say swapped do you mean the set of forks are on the wrong shaft or do you mean the forks are in the wrong order on the same shaft. It's confusing because all four forks look the same.
they look the same.. but the offsets ARE slightly different. Id bet wrong order on the shafts. this is why i assemble in neutral. if any forks are out, this will be immediately noticeable. you should be able to spin the input shaft and the output shaft independent of each other when in neutral just set in the case. if not, you have the forks in wrong.
Here's what m in sc is talking about. There are 2 different forks. There should be a number 1 or 2 on the side of them. 1 has less offset than 2. This is their position.
(https://i.ibb.co/rfzRYmh/Inkedforks-LI.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VpzcRtG)
(https://i.ibb.co/mHD44z4/Inkedforknum-LI.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NLVKKYK)
I'm very sorry to hear of your issues with this swap.
But do appreciate the thread as I'm doing the same swap on my R5. This post has really made me appreciate how important it is to be accurate when assembly of the 6 speed trans is attempted.
Hey, thanks everyone for their help. I worked on the bike tonight, assembling the transmission component by component logically to determine the cause. I ended up finding that I had accidentally mixed up the tin shift drum collar (i'm not sure what else to call it) from the R5, the RD collar is very slightly larger and this was causing the shift drum to drag and not slide into the next gear. I've reassembled the engine, and it shifts through all the gears.
I haven't been able to run the engine yet, as I managed to snap the barb off one of the oil injection fittings on the cylinders, this is causing me major issues as I cannot find a replacement fitting online. The fitting is not the usual banjo style, it is one piece and pressed into the intake. I am only able to find the banjo fittings.
The oil injection fittings are hard to find at the moment.
There is a guy on the Yamaha RD Air Cooled facebook group who is 3d printing them. Name is Steve Burgess
Quote from: rodneya on October 10, 2021, 01:36:07 AM
The oil injection fittings are hard to find at the moment.
There is a guy on the Yamaha RD Air Cooled facebook group who is 3d printing them. Name is Steve Burgess
I can't even find a picture of these fittings, they are brass 90 degrees and are pressed into the location where the banjo fittings would normally go on the r5.
Quote from: mewherman on October 10, 2021, 01:33:20 PM
I can't even find a picture of these fittings, they are brass 90 degrees and are pressed into the location where the banjo fittings would normally go on the r5.
This? Part 24 Looks like it is available. https://www.yamahapartsmonster.com/oemparts/a/yam/50041640f8700209bc7846d0/oiil-pump
Quote from: mewherman on October 09, 2021, 10:54:09 PM
Hey, thanks everyone for their help. I worked on the bike tonight, assembling the transmission component by component logically to determine the cause. I ended up finding that I had accidentally mixed up the tin shift drum collar (i'm not sure what else to call it) from the R5, the RD collar is very slightly larger and this was causing the shift drum to drag and not slide into the next gear. I've reassembled the engine, and it shifts through all the gears.
I haven't been able to run the engine yet, as I managed to snap the barb off one of the oil injection fittings on the cylinders, this is causing me major issues as I cannot find a replacement fitting online. The fitting is not the usual banjo style, it is one piece and pressed into the intake. I am only able to find the banjo fittings.
im pretty sure the cyl fitting is the same as the outlet one on the oil pump . ;)
side note.. makes sense on the drum. good catch.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/203020611803
Quote from: m in sc on October 10, 2021, 02:29:37 PM
Quote from: mewherman on October 09, 2021, 10:54:09 PM
Hey, thanks everyone for their help. I worked on the bike tonight, assembling the transmission component by component logically to determine the cause. I ended up finding that I had accidentally mixed up the tin shift drum collar (i'm not sure what else to call it) from the R5, the RD collar is very slightly larger and this was causing the shift drum to drag and not slide into the next gear. I've reassembled the engine, and it shifts through all the gears.
I haven't been able to run the engine yet, as I managed to snap the barb off one of the oil injection fittings on the cylinders, this is causing me major issues as I cannot find a replacement fitting online. The fitting is not the usual banjo style, it is one piece and pressed into the intake. I am only able to find the banjo fittings.
im pretty sure the cyl fitting is the same as the outlet one on the oil pump . ;)
side note.. makes sense on the drum. good catch.
Quote from: 1976RD400C on October 10, 2021, 02:21:29 PM
Quote from: mewherman on October 10, 2021, 01:33:20 PM
I can't even find a picture of these fittings, they are brass 90 degrees and are pressed into the location where the banjo fittings would normally go on the r5.
This? Part 24 Looks like it is available. https://www.yamahapartsmonster.com/oemparts/a/yam/50041640f8700209bc7846d0/oiil-pump
Quote from: 1976RD400C on October 10, 2021, 02:41:04 PM
https://www.ebay.com/itm/203020611803
Managed to get one of the fittings NOS on eBay yesterday. Does anyone know why my old cylinders had the banjo style and these replacements had this type fitting? Is it a year thing?
Now that you mentioned that I actually have an old RD250 oil pump in my parts stash I should see if I can rob the fitting out of it, this fitting is the only thing stopping me from going for a ride.
Quote from: m in sc on October 10, 2021, 02:29:37 PM
Quote from: mewherman on October 09, 2021, 10:54:09 PM
Hey, thanks everyone for their help. I worked on the bike tonight, assembling the transmission component by component logically to determine the cause. I ended up finding that I had accidentally mixed up the tin shift drum collar (i'm not sure what else to call it) from the R5, the RD collar is very slightly larger and this was causing the shift drum to drag and not slide into the next gear. I've reassembled the engine, and it shifts through all the gears.
I haven't been able to run the engine yet, as I managed to snap the barb off one of the oil injection fittings on the cylinders, this is causing me major issues as I cannot find a replacement fitting online. The fitting is not the usual banjo style, it is one piece and pressed into the intake. I am only able to find the banjo fittings.
im pretty sure the cyl fitting is the same as the outlet one on the oil pump . ;)
side note.. makes sense on the drum. good catch.
Just fyi, I removed a fitting from the oil pump and they are not the same.
If the fitting your are trying to source is a 90 degree press-in oil fitting with a barbed end, they are available. Don't know why you're having a hard time finding them. Although most dealers don't have them because it is a discontinued part.
According to my old parts book, the R5 & R5B used the press-in type nozzle fitting and the R5C used the banjo-bolt type.
Here are the two variants:
24 278-13552-02-00 NOZZLE (278-13552-01) 0 1
24-1 214-13162-01-00 BANJO, DLVRY PIPE
List of superseded parts for the Nozzle:
278-13552-00-00
278-13552-01-00
278-13552-02-00
3XV-13741-00-00
Quite a few on Ebay currently
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m570.l1313&_nkw=yamaha+278-13552&_sacat=0
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2047675.m570.l1313&_nkw=yamaha+3XV-13741&_sacat=0
Speed & Sport in PA has more than 50pcs in stock
Part # Description On Hand Price
278-13552-02-00 3XV-13741-00-00 NOZZLE 20 $28.55
278-13552-01-00 278-13552-02-00 NOZZLE 4 $28.55
3XV-13741-00-00 NOZZLE 31 $18.49
Quote from: SoCal250 on October 17, 2021, 12:30:13 PM
If the fitting your are trying to source is a 90 degree press-in oil fitting with a barbed end, they are available. Don't know why you're having a hard time finding them. Although most dealers don't have them because it is a discontinued part.
According to my old parts book, the R5 & R5B used the press-in type nozzle fitting and the R5C used the banjo-bolt type.
Here are the two variants:
24 278-13552-02-00 NOZZLE (278-13552-01) 0 1
24-1 214-13162-01-00 BANJO, DLVRY PIPE
List of superseded parts for the Nozzle:
278-13552-00-00
278-13552-01-00
278-13552-02-00
3XV-13741-00-00
Quite a few on Ebay currently
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m570.l1313&_nkw=yamaha+278-13552&_sacat=0
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2047675.m570.l1313&_nkw=yamaha+3XV-13741&_sacat=0
Speed & Sport in PA has more than 50pcs in stock
Part # Description On Hand Price
278-13552-02-00 3XV-13741-00-00 NOZZLE 20 $28.55
278-13552-01-00 278-13552-02-00 NOZZLE 4 $28.55
3XV-13741-00-00 NOZZLE 31 $18.49
Oh I have ordered an NOS one on ebay, I just meant it wasn't available on Economy cycle or other similar sites, I was also using the wrong search terms because I didn't know it was a "nozzle". Thanks for all the information!