I wanted a Ducati for a long time. Wife told me to get one around Aug 2022. I looked all over and fell into one while I was in Detroit. A 2022 V2 Panigale. I had Ducati of Detroit put on an Arrow slip-on to remove the Euro 5, they added a servo delete and did a flash tune (Brent tuning).
Flash to last week, getting off the freeway I noted an oil light come on. I stopped thinking maybe oil level. Bike only has 4200 miles but still, stopped. Oil perfect. So I started it back up and went on. The light came back on so I stopped and called my son and trailered the bike back home. Called Ducati of ATL, they said likely just a sensor. I did a flash back to "stock" to be sure there was nothing in the flash that was causing this and no, same after a very short ride.
I took it in to Ducati of ATL. 5 days later I got call saying there is copper in my oil, likely a bearing failure at 4200 miles. I though well SHIT, but still under warranty. Next sentence was, and Ducati declined to even look to see what the issue is due to an aftermarket flash. I called Ducati to have a discussion about this and they said the technical director for North America will be calling me to explain "how an aftermarket flash can cause bearing material in the oil" and "why they declined the warranty". Not how it did but how it could.
The Ducati head tech at ATL told me he does not see this would be the case and seems more likely a manufacturing failure. Ducati of Detroit who did the mods tells me, they cannot just deny a warranty claim just based on the fact you have done a non-manufacture mod. He believes they need to make the case my mod was directly the cause of the failure, or this was his understanding of the law. He was an area service manager for Ducati for 11 years, but he is not sure and wished me good luck.
The good news is, I have the money to get this rebuilt or have a crashed bike motor put in (about 2800-3200 for motor only). But this is under my skin and cannot seem to get over it. It has consumed me for the past week.
If anyone knows warranty law, I would be glad to take a lesson.
A tune doesn't stop an oil pump from working.
The guy is leaning into that as he's probably backed up with warranty claim submissions buried on his desk (that he can't seem to make the time to process) because those claims lower his bottom line and productivity numbers. The only leg he has to stand on is something in the various modules being off causing a running issue. Again, if the motors turning the pump is too. He just doesn't want to deal with a warranty claim as the process sucks across the powersports board. As a Service Writer over a summer, many hours were spent on phones with Yamaha, Suzuki, etc. for warranty claims. They just suck.
Call Ducati yourself and ask. Give them the dealer info, and any paperwork you have from them. Don't lie either (not saying you would).
thanks,
I did call Ducati customer service. That is why the director of north America is to call me back with the explanation of how this flash "could cause" the failure.
Yes i am with you, be civil, do not lie, be as polite as posable.
I honest think my best outcome is they pay for the parts. I can sue them but I would have to go to CA to do this. I am sure they have a team of lawyers that would make me look stupid in small claims court.
for them to deny it they have to prove correlation. there obviously isn't any. if there was there would have been a rash of them that were flashed that then failed. they have to prove that, and remind them of that.
that sucks, i know thats your dream bike.
when i had my sport classic, it had been reflashed, had termis fitted, etc, and they had to do a warranty repair, actually 2, not motor related though. they didn't even remotely try that bullshit.
I hate that for you Paul! I'd continue the course that you are on though.
Maybe a member here is an attorney or legal assistant or knows of one in their family? Hoping that advice could be shared with you in this situation.
Thanks Guys.
Mark, that is what I was told, they have to show that the modification was the cause. And you are 100% correct there are many hundreds of these flashes. The exhaust and flash was done by the dealer, not me on the back yard. I assumed they would not steer me into this dilemma.
I am trying to think positive!
well if the dealer did it, might fall under the lemon law as well. they got some balls trying that though. ...and I've been a service manager before, so, I speak with some experience in this. Only way they can get out of it is if you signed a disclaimer that you gave up your warranty when this mod was done by them. If not, you are in the clear. my .02
I would also join one of the Ducati forums or FB groups to see if this is a more common failure of these engines. If you can point to that then it would be up to them to prove it wasn't their engine failure. I do agree trying to cut a deal to pay for parts and they the labor or something is probably your best bet.
Is there a written copy of the warrantee that came with the bike?
I would be VERY interested to learn how a tune is responsible for the bottom end crapping out. My peanut brain is having a hard time with that....
... but seeing how a Ducati dealer installed said tune on your bike, maybe a threatening letter from a local lawyer can get the dealer MORE on your side. If Ducati is saying the "tune" caused your problems, doesn't that make it the dealer's problem? Dealer doesn't want expensive problems.
ive seen a too aggressive timing curve wipe out a rod bearing on a 4 stroke, bad. but you would have heard it for a long time before it smashed it. .02
This has been the case on the Aprilia RSV4 forum for a while.
They say if you put, or the dealer puts a tune on your bike within warranty timeline....you just removed the warranty.
I know there was a lawsuit against Harley for not accepting responsibility for work done by non Harley dealers on bikes still under warranty.
I still put a Ti pipe and T800 Gabro tune on my RSV4 after 1000 miles.
I have never heard a good word about a BT tune on the Aprilia site....
This seems a bit unreal. If the Detroit dealer did not tell you the mods you wanted would void the warranty, is it up to you to know this? Apparently so. Was it in the original warranty information sold when the bike was new and you did not get it? Unfortunately, as you said, Ducati has the money to just deny the warranty claim and you have to sue. It seems to me that between the Detroit dealer that performed mods that Ducati corporate claims caused the damage... between the two of them they need to make you whole. You operated in good faith and Ducati as an entity is clearly not. This makes Detroit Ducati look uninformed about the capability of their product to handle mods. If Ducati corporate refuses you claim, then they should demand that Ducati dealers do not perform any engine mods at all if the product is still under warranty and if they do, then they are on the hook for fixing it. Ducati corporate needs to do a better job of protecting the brand image because things like this makes the brand look bad.
I would go after the dealer if they did not disclose the mod they did affected warranty.. since they are responsible to administer the warranty claims and Ducati corporates responsibility is to approve or reject said claims.
If there was no written disclaimer, its def legally on the dealership IF their actions were found to actually 1: void the warranty w out telling you and 2: it caused the damage (which no way in hell it did but that's their argument, not yours).
the dealership is easier to go after by far than the corporate entity, and, its where the fault lies.
Yep, agreed, the dealer is easier to go after. First though, I'd try to get out of the middle of the conversation and get Detroit and corporate pointing fingers at each other. As I said, they should work it out so you are made whole without you having to sue or be out of pocket for the repair.
I missed a call from "unknown caller" that I assumed was spam.
Nope Ducati calling. They left a message saying they would call at a later date.
Great.
My plan it to try and keep my cool and play nice.
I will ask them for their denial in writing and ask them how they feel this explanations will satisfy the US Magnuson moss warranty act. And then ask him how I escalate this.
If still denied I will go back to Ducati of Detroit.
All I want is my bike fixed.
If you end up near Detroit again let me know. Not far away.
Thanks I will. If Ducati says no f-ing way I am
Going to ask the guys in Detroit to do something for cost or something.
If they do I will trailer it up.
I got a call from Ducati. They told me wow, sorry man. I know that is hard.
BUT, if you pay to have the motor torn down and we see something that shows us this is a manufacturing defect "I will go to bat for you to get it fixed". What a guy!
$1700.00 for this to just tear it down.
When I told this guy, well, according to the Magnuson Moss warranty act this is exactly backward. the manufacture needs to prove the modification caused the failure. His response was, if we want to talk about this, we need to stop talking and I will have to refer you to our legal team.
Guys in Detroit will do it if I bring it to them but no discount. No one is going to do anything to help me on this F-ED up mess.
eBay engine is 2800-3K 1500 to get it installed. But I wonder what is the value of the bike after? I am sure it would be much less.
F. I wish I would have driven past that dealership a year ago but, I have to deal with the reality I have.
Ouch. Not good. The dealer system strikes again!
What would it be to tear the motor apart and do it yourself? It seems more and more obvious Ducati isn't willing to help. Might consider a consultation with a lawyer. Try not to get into the legal weeds, but there's that. Or, fix it.
Either way I don't think I'll be buying a Ducati EVER.
call them on their bluff. my ex wife used to do warranty admin at the local duc/bmw/triumph dealership, prior to that, at various car dealerships, and many years ago i spent my time in them as well. that said:
get a lawyer, not retained per-say, but to draft a letter to them citing said law and what transpired and what they expect the outcome should be and what your expected outcome should be. get a copy of this letter to the general manager of the dealership and the corp exec. it should cost 250-300 bucks top to get done.
If they think you're not fucking around, and YOU are willing to get a lawyer involved, their tune will change quickly, they don't need a potential ruling against them.
right now, you are just an angry old guy to them. I heard years and years of these stories every night when i went home over dinner.. and 85-90% of the time, it went the customers way.
it's worth the gamble on calling them on their bullshit. at the end of the day, they do not want to spend the retained lawyers time dealing w you, (it does have value to a corporate entity, make no doubt).. it isn't worth it ultimately to them, they i am sure have bigger fish to fry.
if nothing come of it, then there it is.
^ great advice there from Mark! :thumbs:
What I am leaning toward now is get the motor taken apart and grantee the money. If Ducati said F-you, I will do exactly what you said Mark get a lawyer and make the next move. I feel like I would be hedging my bet doing this. If I go straight to the lawyer there is a chance I am still getting nothing and I will get nothing from service as "good will". He made that apparent in our conversation.
and yes, I agree Ducati NEVER again, they made a bad decision, they have made an enemy for life out of me.
well thanks a LOT for the input guys. I wanted to stay away from the Ducati forms just in case these fools look. I wanted to try and keep is as civil as posable.
so whos going into the motor?
I was going to have the guys in Detroit do it. After I called them to discuss and ask them if they were willing to give me a discount in labor if I had to end up paying (Ducati still says no after looking into the motor).
They said no. I express my displeasure seeing how they were the ones who did this.
If the owner does not say something different then the service manger I will not give them another penny of my money.
I will let the Ducati ATL shop do it. It has to be Ducati or they will not do anything without lawsuit.
Cheapest way out is eBay motor. I fear I will not be able to sell it if I do that.
I would do the letter first like Mark said. Once you have it apart they have you on the hook.
I would also have a letter drafted up from the lawyer to the Detroit dealership basically stating that they will be sued for repair costs if Ducati doesn't honor the warranty claim since they did this to a new bike sold by them and made no mention of this voiding the warranty with the manufacturer. Let them fight with corporate if they think they will be on the hook for the bill.
I agree with the lawyer and the letter. It really seems the most simple way to get some action. When I had some issues with my VW the dealer kept trying to add services, they even failed the state car inspection despite the car not being there for inspection, then they tacked on a bunch of charges for brakes (which in their own report passed inspection). My favorite was that the car sat on their lot for three weeks and when the battery was dead they refused to charge the battery, they said they had to replace it. Finally I just told the repair department manager that if they didn't stop effing around my lawyer would be in touch. Problem solved.
Quote from: sav0r on November 25, 2022, 11:46:08 AM
I agree with the lawyer and the letter. It really seems the most simple way to get some action. When I had some issues with my VW the dealer kept trying to add services, they even failed the state car inspection despite the car not being there for inspection, then they tacked on a bunch of charges for brakes (which in their own report passed inspection). My favorite was that the car sat on their lot for three weeks and when the battery was dead they refused to charge the battery, they said they had to replace it. Finally I just told the repair department manager that if they didn't stop effing around my lawyer would be in touch. Problem solved.
A VW failed a state inspection? Color me shocked. Say it ain't so?! It's almost like VW corporate flat out lied to the world several years ago about emissions. :haw:
It officially failed because they couldn't get the warranty parts, and yes, it is a dieselgate car. But they hassled me a bunch before that. It's been fixed, let's put it that way.
well after being consumed by this, calling attorneys Ducati, the guys in Detroit I have decided to just replace the motor.
I ordered it yesterday and it will arrive before the end of the week. I am getting a warranty that will cover the same as the factory should have but they are not worried about the tune (in writing). It is transferable and when I see it it will be a good selling point. Yes it has a used motor with 2000 miles but I have a 5 year warranty.
It was making me crazy and it was worth the cost to just get this behind me. Peace has a value and I feel so much better.
I still say F Ducati but I feel much better.
Good. Peace is ALWAYS the better option if possible.
What I would do in this situation, unless your old motor is a core charge of some kind, I'd tear into it. Worst that can happen is it's grenaded completely. If it's fixable, you can do so and recoup some of your used motor fees, etc.
Glad you have a resolution! You'll have your Duc ready to ride for spring, and that's what it's all about.