I had to pull the pickups off on my R5 running a Dyna S while troubleshooting some issues.
Now I realize I don't have the docs on how to set the timing, and I don't see them available on the Vintage Smoke site.
Anyone have a PDF of the procedure?
Thanks
Ed
Hi Ed,
I have a really old version from 2014.
use a timing light.
I always do a static time first with a dial indicator and plugs in wires laying on head, key on and watch for spark pop turning by hand, then mark stator housing for reference and verify with a timing light as Mark said.
In your case you might see a mark were it used to be and maybe set it there so you can skip the dial way if you have verified marks to use the light on.
Chuck
Thanks guys.
I do have a dial indicator, so I will start there. Need to acquire a timing light, I haven't used one since I installed a Pertronix in my wife's 66 Mustang and can't find it...
I didn't check closely for marks but I bet the original installer made some, ill ask him. Also, I only have to mess with one pickup, since only one cylinder is cutting out so I should be able to see the untouched side at 1.8 with my dial indicator.
I did take a short spin yesterday and timing is certainly "off".
Regards
Ed
i have one of these, its really, really good. https://www.sears.com/craftsman-professional-digital-timing-light/p-00914066000P?sid=IDx20070921x00003c
especially with an old car, it helps so you can verify total advance. and, it has a 2 cycle mode. :cheerleader:
http://vintagesmoke.com/product/digital-2-stroke-timing-gauge/
I used this digital gauge from vintage smoke to set the timing and it worked well.
I was able to set the timing yesterday with my dial indicator. Unfortunately my original issue remains.
My right side cylinder cuts out, this has been a problem for some time but is now more persistent. For example yesterday after timing, the bike fired right up on both cylinders. I took a spin around the block and it cut out. The left cylinder continues to run. I had the chance to jiggle/touch/re-examine all the wiring to see if I could locate a connection problem, no avail. I had the bike on the side stand putting away on one cylinder for quite a few minutes.
History: this Dyna has been on the bike for 6 years. Problems started last summer with intermittent cut-out but it always seemed to re-fire and get me home. This year it's way worst, bike cannot be reliably ridden. It's possibly related to heat but I cannot be 100% certain. I have had instances where it started up cold running on the left only. Usually it starts on both and the right stops some time after.
Last time I tackled the problem was at a meet with Eric and Johnny Rotten. We covered everything we could think of. New coils. Swapped coils. New wires. Swapped wires. Etc etc all weekend messing with it without fixing it. I believe I am down to two things:
- Bad right side Dyna pickup
- Bad connector somewhere in the loom
Today I am going to use the Dyna S test procedure from their website to do some static measurements as well as try to trace any loom wiring that could be at fault. Probably disconnect each bullet connector and clean/lube although I've messed with most the connectors in the last year chasing this problem.
Questions to the collective:
- anyone ever had a bad pickup? What was the symptoms and how did you get a new pickup?
- anyone have better measurement/test specs for the Dyna?
- anyone have a spare Dyna or pickup they want to lend/sell for test purposes?
- anyone go back to points? I think I have everything to do it but I'm unsure how much wiring changes went into to install, since I didn't do it originally. This may be worth it to prove/disprove a bad pickup.
Again it's not a hard fault. I could probably start the bike right now and have both cylinders running but the RS will stop firing in a bit. Also note that when timing yesterday I was always getting my spark, it wasn't till after riding for 3-5 minutes that the RS stopped running.
Super frustrated....
You could have a bad pickup, but that's rare. Maybe those crimped wire connections in the Dyna unit are not making great contact anymore. Chuck has recommended soldering those.
swap pickups and see if it follows the pickup side. also make sure the connector to feed 12v to the coils is tight on BOTH connections. :twocents:
Quote from: m in sc on August 07, 2019, 09:55:13 AM
swap pickups and see if it follows the pickup side. also make sure the connector to feed 12v to the coils is tight on BOTH connections. :twocents:
Now that I know how to time it i think I can do that fairly easily...
I have a full garage day today.
Spent the day in the garage. Went thru some Dyna static testing but didn't get anything obvious. Assured there was 12v coming from both coils to the Dyna inputs.
Then I did what Mark suggested and flipped the Dyna. One thing I wish I did was recheck spark on the right side before I flipped the unit. In any case when I shut the bike off last night the right cylinder was dead.
What I found after the flip was that there was NO SPARK on the left plug now, almost assuring a bad right side pickup.
(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff131/aaaltered468/68627727-9525-4042-A57E-091D6E8923F2.jpg) (http://s239.photobucket.com/user/aaaltered468/media/68627727-9525-4042-A57E-091D6E8923F2.jpg.html)
Then I thought I should recheck the common pair of red wires at the bullet connector that comes down from the loom into the Dyna. What I found made me question that connection so I redid the bullet.
Before:
(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff131/aaaltered468/11878E95-F541-40E6-AA98-F347348B2F58.jpg) (http://s239.photobucket.com/user/aaaltered468/media/11878E95-F541-40E6-AA98-F347348B2F58.jpg.html)
After:
(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff131/aaaltered468/C06B9C2E-3D28-458A-8171-2D75C185759B.jpg) (http://s239.photobucket.com/user/aaaltered468/media/C06B9C2E-3D28-458A-8171-2D75C185759B.jpg.html)
While I was momentarily hopeful, redoing that connection did not fix the fault.
I flipped the Dyna back into its correct configuration and the "No Spark" moved back to the right side.
Now I have 99.9% confidence that this Dyna has a bad right side pickup that has finally failed all the way.
I'm going to try to reach Nick to see what options I have, I was told he does have a rebuilt service....
Regards
Ed
Bummer that the simple soldering fix did not help. Glad you have more direction now.
With the R5 temporarily in the corner of shame the RD200 moves to pole position.
(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff131/aaaltered468/1AD2160D-D1FC-4489-860A-6EEA51961375.jpg) (http://s239.photobucket.com/user/aaaltered468/media/1AD2160D-D1FC-4489-860A-6EEA51961375.jpg.html)
Gear lube change before it goes back into regular service...
(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff131/aaaltered468/5EFE69D7-9A07-4438-B876-3B727815CD08.jpg) (http://s239.photobucket.com/user/aaaltered468/media/5EFE69D7-9A07-4438-B876-3B727815CD08.jpg.html)
Sounds like a dead pickup that fails when hot. We had a couple do that over the years on different bikes. DYNA S modules are very reliable but sometimes one will die.
What I do is to scour ebay for second hand units and harvest the modules. If you still need one PM me and i'll see if I have a spare.
I had a problem years ago with an aftermarket electronic ignition on my GS1000 with wire crimps so that is a good thing to check. It wasn't fun riding 50 miles home with only 2 of 4 cylinders firing. If crimped properly with the right tool the crimps do not need to be soldered. The problem I found was that the wired had been tinned (coated with solder) before being crimped. That is not how the crimps were designed to work, the wire needs to be bare stranded before being crimped. You can solder it afterwards if you want. So double check the crimps, hopefully it is something simple.
Dave
Not sure I'll get a reply from Nick, so I did some hunting for pickups.
There are no part numbers on mine, so I looked for other Dyna S units that have visually similar pickups.
I see a new unit for a Kawi KZ that appears to have the same pickups. Is anyone familiar enough with the Dyna S variants to conclude that these pickups should work on my R5? For $120 it seems worth a shot (it's payday dontcha know...)
Mine:
(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff131/aaaltered468/A7170E41-1853-43BB-9542-E338AF4901F3.jpg) (http://s239.photobucket.com/user/aaaltered468/media/A7170E41-1853-43BB-9542-E338AF4901F3.jpg.html)
(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff131/aaaltered468/12A6AA7B-9A9F-4EA6-902D-93F180426632.jpg) (http://s239.photobucket.com/user/aaaltered468/media/12A6AA7B-9A9F-4EA6-902D-93F180426632.jpg.html)
Ebay KZ unit:
(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff131/aaaltered468/CED00F0A-32E5-43A3-9689-2BC7CA93C7EE.jpg) (http://s239.photobucket.com/user/aaaltered468/media/CED00F0A-32E5-43A3-9689-2BC7CA93C7EE.jpg.html)
Thoughts?
it will work
Thanks Mark. Purchased. Expected delivery Wednesday. Fingers crossed.
The new Dyna arrived today, and I was able to spend a few hours in the garage.
I took one pickup off the new Dyna and grafted it onto the R5 wiring. Knew almost right away I had a spark back on both sides.
Did the timing routine, and kicked it.....
Note the blue haze from both sides...
(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff131/aaaltered468/0E7E765A-FA41-4EC3-88C5-F2079D29BDA4.jpg) (http://s239.photobucket.com/user/aaaltered468/media/0E7E765A-FA41-4EC3-88C5-F2079D29BDA4.jpg.html)
I have a bit to button up before I take a short shakedown ride...either later tonight or tomorrow morning....
Great news!
I've got two rides and about 8 miles on the new iggy. I'm staying close to home because pushing it home is a biatch. That said, it's run flawlessly so far.....
:clap:
Great! Hope it holds up for you. :cheers:
:cheerleader:
I had the same issue on my bike. As soon as the engine heat pick up one side fails. Once the engine is cool it fires again. Contacted Nick. He wanted the complete kit to be send to him for inspection and replacement. Considering the age of the kit, cost of repair & shipping , I bought a new Dyna S kit from Nick and installed . It's running fine now. But it is difficult to get a response from Nick on e-mail ::)
^^^^^^^ what he said.
BUT instead of buying a new VS kit, I bought a KZ kit for $120 and used the pickup. The real cost of the VS kit is the custom made mounting plate. Once you have the plate, you can use pickups from other kits. I researched all the Dyna S kits and had to go by them looking the same, since there are no PNs on the bits.
I'm glad I finally dug in to resolve this, I didn't originally install the iggy so had little knowledge about it. Now I do and got away "cheap"....
actually, one of the huge benefits of nicks kit was the rotor. that's why the motors don't start backwards with his, they can using an off the shelf unit. ask how i know... :o
Im not sure whats going on with Nick and this stuff. I wish he would get back on board with doing this stuff, however, I can tell you, its time consuming to make these kits and his profit is a lot lower than you might think. But, it did help the community a lot having them available.
Quote from: m in sc on August 23, 2019, 08:06:41 AM
actually, one of the huge benefits of nicks kit was the rotor. that's why the motors don't start backwards with his, they can using an off the shelf unit. ask how i know... :o
Im not sure whats going on with Nick and this stuff. I wish he would get back on board with doing this stuff, however, I can tell you, its time consuming to make these kits and his profit is a lot lower than you might think. But, it did help the community a lot having them available.
Well if that was the case mine would not be running backwards at all. It does routinely. It's more of an annoyance now but that's it. It's not supposed to, but who knows what's actually going on. Maybe these new dyna pickups are different?
has to do with the magnet placement why nicks rotors work. 99% of the time, running backwards is due to timing being too far advanced. you -can- make it run backwards, but its not really easy with the VS rotor. the pickups haven't functionally changed in over 20 years. they are smaller now but thats about it. A few of us on here used to modify the cb and kz dyna s systems back in the 'dark days' (of lack of good rd ignition availability), those things would run backwards if you breathed on them wrong.
Quote from: AAAltered on August 23, 2019, 07:42:57 AM
^^^^^^^ what he said.
BUT instead of buying a new VS kit, I bought a KZ kit for $120 and used the pickup. The real cost of the VS kit is the custom made mounting plate. Once you have the plate, you can use pickups from other kits. I researched all the Dyna S kits and had to go by them looking the same, since there are no PNs on the bits.
I'm glad I finally dug in to resolve this, I didn't originally install the iggy so had little knowledge about it. Now I do and got away "cheap"....
i was planning the same route. Later decided for a complete kit when Nick suggested that problem can be of the trigger also, which is not available in spare
Nick's trigger has three magnets. The extra magnet is what prevents it from running backward. You can test the magnets with a small Allen wrench or paper clip. The three magnets are pretty close together. With the Allen wrench or paper clip, you should feel three distinct and equal pulls from the magnets on the rotor.
Quote from: Organicjedi on August 25, 2019, 11:07:51 PM
Nick's trigger has three magnets. The extra magnet is what prevents it from running backward. You can test the magnets with a small Allen wrench or paper clip. The three magnets are pretty close together. With the Allen wrench or paper clip, you should feel three distinct and equal pulls from the magnets on the rotor.
Thanks for that info
Oh man, I had the same issue and needed to get a new mod as well.