Our extinct forum had a discussion of VForce V384A reeds for Yamaha twins. I bought a set and can't find any discussions on the 'net for installing 384A reeds on RD400's and RD350's. I put a set of reeds up to an RD400 intake and they won't go all the way in. Looks like I'll need a set of reed spacers. I would rather not take a chance on grinding the ports to fit the reeds.
Please share your VForce reed info here.
I believe Mark says you need a 6mm reed spacer between the reeds and cylinder
I'm also curious as thinking about doing this on my LC.
yup. for an rm100.
def need the spacer or it just doesnt work quite right. (but it will fit)
(http://i1097.photobucket.com/albums/g348/rooskie3/rm100-kx80-reeds-for-rd/rm100-reed-rd_8_zpsglllsc51.jpg)
(http://i1097.photobucket.com/albums/g348/rooskie3/rm100-kx80-reeds-for-rd/rm100-reed-rd_4_zpscvw0rb8f.jpg)
you have to open holes out to 9mm. then it bolts in and centers
(http://i1097.photobucket.com/albums/g348/rooskie3/rm100-kx80-reeds-for-rd/rm100-reed-rd_6_zpsx6gtd8b7.jpg)
and open stuffer up to match intake. im running this with 34's
(http://i1097.photobucket.com/albums/g348/rooskie3/rm100-kx80-reeds-for-rd/rm100-kx80-stuffers_34mm-7_zpsaze0wdlo.jpg)
this is the unmodified reed stuffer opening.
(http://i1097.photobucket.com/albums/g348/rooskie3/rm100-kx80-reeds-for-rd/stok-kx80-stuffer-opening-dims_zpstrnmhtp5.jpg)
bolted in. was testing w/out crossover initially. has a supertune/barlow bottle on it now. >:D
(http://i1097.photobucket.com/albums/g348/rooskie3/rm100-kx80-reeds-for-rd/20181107_201254_zpsla9edskt.jpg)
Mine wouldn't fit even with the spacers, material removal was required. Not a big deal, just take your time.
the rm100 reeds will absolutely fit an unmodified cylinder, even w/out the spacer. the yz85 ones will not. .02
Yes mine are YZ85, my mistake... ;D
Thanks all!
The YZ85 reeds are V382A, not the same as the RM100 V384A reeds which are bit smaller and just need a bit of bolt hole mods.
The YZ85 reeds need porting out of the intake track to fit. Exact bolt pattern as the RD and RZ's.... I do use my TSR laser CNC cut reed spacer kit when using them. ( I make a special set just for this setup)
YZ85 V-Force reed cages are great for bigger power on stg 2 built or track bike engine setups.
I did put in some Banshee 350 V-Force reed cages in my Yellow Screamer street bike, but are even bigger than the YZ85 reeds and need to epoxy the outsides of the cylinders as they do break through the stock RD400 castings on the cylinders.
Chuck
Great, I remember reading about the V382A's as well, now we have the important details available again.
Mark (or Chuck), have you fitted VForce reeds to the RD350LC cylinders?
There is some adamant debate on Norbo's forum that there are no VForce 3 or 4 that fit the LC's without modifying the cyls. Even with spacers.
http://rdlccrazy.proboards.com/thread/41050/vforce4-reeds-on-4l0
http://rdlccrazy.proboards.com/thread/46865/force-reeds
i test fit them on my spare lc jugs, they will go . still use the spacer.
Another note:
All of my TSR Reed Spacer kits I have made in a CNC lazer at my longtime friends shop at Interstate Welding and Fab Inc.
These are made using .250in (6.35mm) 6061 plate material.
Here a few pics and will try a video link...BTW, this machine has a 75HP air compressor, a Nitrogen generator and a clean air filtering system in a separete room just to support it to be able to run it.
2nd pic is the 2 story automated loading dock on the back side...you can have one for about $1.4m installed (building not included)
This was taken when they were doing a run of 1/4 steel brackets for a hot pressure washer they make frames for.
Chuck
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/cncpics/icons/20170314_130211.jpg)
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/cncpics/icons/20170314_130025.jpg)
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/cncpics/icons/20170314_130045.jpg)
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/cncpics/icons/20170314_130228.jpg)
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/cncpics/icons/20170314_125854.jpg)
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/cncpics/icons/20170314_125817.jpg)
Video
https://imageevent.com/supertune/cncpics?p=15&n=1&m=12&c=1&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9 (https://imageevent.com/supertune/cncpics?p=15&n=1&m=12&c=1&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9)
On the YZ85-VF V382A reeds you have to port out the stuffers to fit whatever manifolds your using.
In my bigger TM34's flatslide conversions I use the UPP manifolds. Bolt the manifolds onto the reeds and scribe a match line as shown here.
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/guillermosrd400videos/huge/20170625_145520.jpg)
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400/large/20180828_185509.jpg)
Now you have a port out to size to grind to. I always have a new carbide bit I save just to cut these hard plastic stuffers, never use on metal. Old bits just cut like crap once used on metal.
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400/large/20180828_185257.jpg)
Once your cut out to size, feather your cut down the ears to have a nice airflow pattern through the stuffer.
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/guillermosrd400videos/huge/20170625_151409.jpg)
When your ready to grind out the cylinders to fit I use some studs in the boltholes then slide on my TSR reed spacer and scribe a cut line to port out to.
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/paulsrd400/large/20170425_093217.jpg)
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/guillermosrd400videos/huge/20170420_120627.jpg)
Using the studs allows me to slide in the reed cages to keep checking where to remove material out of the intake track.
Chuck
as an addendum: the reeds did fot (rm100 ones) without the spacer, but didnt run well. my suspicion is that (especially) with the double reed tips, the flow just got all jacked up as the piston went down and pushed the mixture up past them to the boost port w/out the spacer
A lot of great info in this thread!
It seems all agree that either YZ85 or RM100 VForce reeds work well on ported engines.
At the same time, EE claims that he has had engines up to 70 up with modified stock reeds.
That leaves me with a question: Is there any benefit using these reeds on stock or mildly modded RDs?
(On the ACRD forum, it seems most believe the stock steel reeds are the best for any RD.........)
That's a great question. I'd speculate that most guys there run stock or mildly modified bikes and that the stock reeds may well be adequate for a mild or stock motor. A high performance motor is probably restricted in the reed area and a bike with large carbs can probably benefit from better flowing reeds, but small stock carbs on a mild motor probably don't need more reed area.
Some years ago Performance Bikes tested a bunch of different reeds and cages on an LC cylinder and the difference in HP and flow was barely measurable. That may have been on a fully tuned 250 though. I can't remember and it's too cold outside in the shop to go and dig it out.
So the question that raises is at what HP or airflow level do the reeds become the limiting factor?
in my experience, by feel, anything OVER 30mm carbs that the motor actually needs will benefit from larger reeds in a notable way. its not as much about total flow volume, persay, as it is about the volume over time affecting the ability for the reed to close back up between intake strokes. more reed area = more cfm per mm of reed lift. IF the reed opens a shorter distance, it can close faster. by giving more reed area, this is achieved. this definitely helps in responsiveness and crispness as you aren't blowing mixture back out the reed waiting for it to close when the piston starts to move back down. this is why the steel reeds, IMHO, work well on stock to mild motors with 26-28mm carbs. they snap back faster. single petal or ported reeds with YZ petals seem to work well up to 30-32 mm carbs depending on state of tune of the porting and how much is flowing through them (with a direct affect on how far the petal has to move). therefore, with double the reed tip are as on a v force type, it only has to open, in theory, 1/2 the distance to equal the same flow, therefore closing 2x as fast (again in theory) which gives better rideability on bigger carbed motors. im sure it will help the crispness down low on even a stock ported motor to some degree, but probably not enough to even feel.
:tellit: :twocents: :dawg:
I'm with Mark, The VF reed will have better response and do help HP #'s when using bigger carbs on the RD's. On mild builds I use the YZ125 fiberglass oem reeds as they do respond faster than the stock metal reed petals.
Yes, I have made 74HP RD400 with my Harry Barlow F-500 engine he did for me in 2001 on ported stock cages with custom TDR reeds, VM36 Mikuni's and Harry's pipes, this was on a dynojet 150 with upgrades.
Back then the rules stated we had to use a stock cage, but could do anything we wanted to them and reed petals.
These pics were from Paul's STG 2 build with TM34's on pump gas and made almost 62HP with the VF YZ 85 reeds.
Chuck
Guess I need to send my cylinders back out to you to get the Paul Special port done on my Stg 2 cylinders lol
I did put in some Banshee 350 V-Force reed cages in my Yellow Screamer street bike, but are even bigger than the YZ85 reeds and need to epoxy the outsides of the cylinders as they do break through the stock RD400 castings on the cylinders.
Chuck
[/quote]
^X2 I have a set of RD400 cylinders set up for Banshee V-Force III reeds. The metal got extremely thin so we epoxied the cylinders too. Also had to use spacers.. I don't remember the thickness off the top of my head.
A Britt was trying to tell me that stock reeds are best and was talking about 70hp with them. He even showed me a dyno chart. It was clearly a race bike though as there was no power below 7 or 8k.
The V force reeds really helped the low and mids and also throttle response on my 400. That's what counts for me.
Alright I should probably clear this up. Here's my webpage on reeds & reedcages: http://erlenbachracing.co/reedcages%20mods.htm
The 70hp through stock reedcages gets quoted a lot so here's "The rest of the story..."
Around 2000ish I'd developed my landspeed RD400 and set the 3 world records and moved on to running an RD400 roadracing program http://erlenbachracing.co/roadracing.htm , well I got the bike pretty darn well developed and we're going to the dyno and I think I've always wondered just how much hp you can squeeze through a stock unmodified set of cages, then modified, then RZ so I take a box of reedcages. We dyno the bike with the modified RZ reedcages it had in it and then I throw in a set of stock unmodified reedcages (with fiber reeds I won't run steel.. to much money in these motors to risk it and zero real proof (dyno proof) I've ever seen to say they even work "as well" as fiber reeds..), and i'm thinking this will really choke the hp down! Nope... it pulled the same peak hp, Now to be fair the dyno guy couldn't print anything out so I don't have two charts to lay on top of each other but I am 100% sure where you would see the difference is in off peak and throttle response. There's some amazing things happening at peak hp and as this test proved to me way back then was something I thought I'd been seeing anyway (Ahrma limited us to RD reedcages and we would never see much if any of a drop in lap times when we would switch from modified RZ to modified RD BUT a good Roadracing rider can compensate for a lot of variables..) which was that a well developed engine and properly designed expansion chamber could overcome a slightly less than optimal reedcage size. Translated it means that most people put in more reedcage than they need.. the rule of thumb is only increase a restriction in an engine to the size needed or just "slightly" above or you lose velocity.. In my builds these days I try to use YZ85 reedcages or YZ85 vforce cages in everything for the street and entry level roadracing even. I have no problem getting them in any RD cylinder (with a little patience) without "busting through" or "hitting air" as we say and they have plenty of airflow. Then for all out I switch to RZ or Banshee vforce.
Ed thanks for your input! For us streetbike guys, what pipes and carbs do you recommend to match the reeds?
Can't go wrong with Gary's off the shelf F1 pipes(spec 2)
For street package as long as we can still get them.
They make more usable street power than any for the $$
I have great dyno results even making 35 ft -lbs of torque which is hard to do and still make over 58 HP on a pump gas street 400.
I need to make more time to come here and post these results.
Guillermo had me build his RD400 a year and a half ago, and he ripped out 7600 miles on it doing nothing but new plugs and fix a broken throttle cable 3 way splitter. Went to Roebing Road races and dynoed it by just adding a 3/4 gallon of 110 race gas with 50:1 to his half of tank pump 93, put in some new br9iex plugs and right to the dyno...(this is riding it to the track 18 miles from his home)
This is very good results in my book.
Chuck
Good to know, thanks Chuck!
I have three RD400 projects and three sets of pipes. Spec2 classic, Bassani and Jim Lomas street retro. One set of ported cylinders by Ed, done a couple of years ago and waiting for me to put a bike together. For carbs I have stock VM28's, PWK28's and VM34's.
I don't intend to go all out on all of these bikes due to $$$ and I have several other bikes (Kawi triples, RD350 etc). Recommendations on pipe/carb combinations will be appreciated.
My take is use them 34's on Eds cylinders and the classics first!
Save the stock vm28 for the Bassani's, then the pwk with retro's last.
C
Thanks Chuck, I'm working on the '76 now. I may put the Bassani's and VM28's on it. I'm saving the best parts for the '78.
Crystal Silver '78's are the best looking for me!!
Here's Guillermo's '77 STG 2 ported with the V-Force V382A reeds using TM34's and F1's.
This was when I was taking it out at night for break in right after I got it together in August 2017
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/guillermosrd400videos/huge/20170728_233620.jpg)
Here's the dyno run last month after Guillermo putting 7600 miles on it...(ok , yes the chain was a bit loose, G just loves to ride it!)
https://imageevent.com/supertune/guillermosrd400videos?p=100&n=1&m=14&c=2&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=4 (https://imageevent.com/supertune/guillermosrd400videos?p=100&n=1&m=14&c=2&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=4)
Torque and power curve is very broad and makes this 2 stroke a beast to ride on pump gas on the street.
35 FT-LBS of torque and 58 HP
(https://photos.imageevent.com/supertune/guillermosrd400videos/huge/20190223_134838.jpg)
Chuck
I'm getting back to work on my LC, so digging up an old thread here.
After reading this thru a few times, it seems the bottom line is:
If your cylinders are off, and you are good opening up the reed boxes (or paying someone else to do it), the bigger Vforce3 V382A YZ85 reeds are the way to go.
If your cylinders are on the bike and/or you don't want to modify them, go with the smaller V384A for the RM100 because they drop right in.
Is this correct?
In my case, I'll be using bigger/more modern carbs and tuning the cyls/head as well. Does this change the optimal reed choice?
... and as a side note, Garrett opened up the reed boxes (and opened the intake ports a little) on the Kart Track Racer RD350 cyls, and we fit VM30's with the Vforce3 V382A reeds and it rips. Pulls stronger up top than any RD I've ridden.
im pulling 34s thru the RM100 reeds, no issues there, they will more than handle 30s IMHO :twocents:
Quote from: m in sc on June 03, 2019, 01:27:58 PM
im pulling 34s thru the RM100 reeds, no issues there, they will more than handle 30s IMHO :twocents:
Is that on LC cylinders Mark?
no, a set of very ported aircooled cyls with specIIf1s. (chuck did the top end) i have 34s & v force (larger ones because i hadnt found the rm100 yet) on my lc as well though. the tip area between the 2 is very close anyway.
OK!
The UK guys are all telling me PWK28's are the way to go and good for +70hp, so maybe the V384A and PWKs are a good match.
Looks like the PWK28's work with the standard throttle cable, and as I'm keeping the oil pump, this is a big bonus.
Watch out for counterfeits. Just about any low priced PWK on e-bay is a fake. The owner of the local moped shop says the fakes work okay but the throttle response and idle are not as crisp.
Yeah, they are either around $130 or $25 each.
Any definitive way to tell the real from the fake by sight?
real ones have plastic idle screws, non original ones are metal. I know.. weird. the OKOs i had were great though.
rule of thumb: if they come with hex mains, they are either real deal, or good copies. the ones with the round main jets: avoid at all costs.
Even the OKOs have knock offs now, Mid-Atlantic Trials did a good write up on how to pick the fakes & what the actual differences are
Quote from: tony27 on June 04, 2019, 03:00:31 AM
Even the OKOs have knock offs now, Mid-Atlantic Trials did a good write up on how to pick the fakes & what the actual differences are
Yep, I've seen this. If it's made in Taiwan (sticker on the box) then it's real (usually 130 dollars), if it's a take Chinese one then steer clear. They use different jets as well, just like many POS.
good reeds and spacers make a HUGE difference
Quote from: rdshaw on June 09, 2019, 05:04:08 PM
good reeds and spacers make a HUGE difference
Yeah, after I felt how good the Kart Track Racer felt with the Vforce reeds and spacers, they are on the list for the TDR250 when I'm done with the 4U0regon build.