2 STROKE WORLD .net

So 15 years ago I had an RZ350 and started to fuel inject it with a megasquiirt and some throttle bodies from an R6. I had it running and was about to start the arduous tuning process (i didnt have an O2 sensor) but I decided to get leukemia instead so that was the end of that.

Now I find myself yearning for a project to sink my teeth into and EFI popped into my head again. The plan is keep the airbox and use an O2 sensor this time to help with tuning. I have a 2004 700MXZ here I think I might sell to fund the project.

First thing would be buying a Vape ignition because I'd want the extra wattage it generates to run the fuel pump. I highly doubt the stock makes enough juice. Also there is no coolant like the RZ but I'm fairly certain people run those spark plug head temp sensors and alter the tables in the code to adjust mixture as the bike warms up. I have 10ah liFeP04 cells and Id use 4 to build my own 12v battery to make sure there's plenty of juice if I ever get caught in stop and go traffic. The Megasquirt has ignition map capability but I dont think I'll go down that road for fear of melting holes in pistons. This will really just be a project to keep me busy and interested over the winter.

I'm still a little on the fence if I take this on, tho.... im trying to save a down payment on a house and heading down this road will easily cost $2000 if not more. Im telling myself if I sell the sled its money I wouldnt have had anyways so.... its ok to spend it on this project.

If I do go down this road... there is still time before the snow to order a Vape and get that on and running. Once thats done everything will be in place to start EFI build.

Am I crazy?

just out of curiosity.. with a 2t, would it be frugal to also add an egt to supply data to the ecm?

I'm planning on adding them but for a gauge I can see....  Ive not yet started my research into what the megasquirt is capable of 15 years later so maybe feeding and EGT into it is doable. The thing is... what values mean what out of them? I guess I could add them before EFI and logging what they run now as a baseline but my bike is surely rich everywhere.

I'm kinda hoping the O2 sensor will tell me exactly what is going on with combustion and I can play it safe using that data.

Been on fleabay looking around...  looks like Yzf-R3 throttle bodies are ideal. I wont need to mod them or the fuel rail like I had to with thr R6 ones... these are from a twin that makes 35 rear wheel hp. I think they and their injectors are a perfect match for what the RD400 needs.

The only icky part is I think they are 32mm throttle bodies so I'll have to figure out something simple to adapt them to the RD intakes.

Also... anyone have a preference as to where to buy Vapes's?  Things are pricey!

johns is about on par with pricing with the vapes, i get mine from him.

Sorry Mark keep clicking the wrong thing on my phone.

Buy from EC and support him.

EC it is, thanks guys :)

dont forget the '2sw' discount code.  :haw:

EFI sounds like a lot of fun and potentially a lot of power and rideability.

I'd go O2 and forget CHT or EGT. I have used both extensively, generally recording them at like 20hz, and they just aren't that great for street use. CHT is particularly worthless, EGT can be used with great results on the race track, but it's not particularly valuable on the street.

I've used wide band lamda as well, and it's really pretty much the way to go. With a 2t you have to use heated units, and if you get too rich they will foul. Sometimes they will clean up, sometimes you have to clean them, but sometimes they are ruined. The other issue with a 2t (and any engine) is that you have leakage ahead of the sensor it will send your readings well off. This is particularly tricky on 2t's as we all seem to like to keep our expansion chambers loose on the spigots. Certainly not an insurmountable thing to figure out, but it should be on your radar if you go for it.

For what it's worth, I spoke with Jeff Miller and he says that on their engines the added complexity and weight of EFI wasn't providing enough of a benefit to justify switching from Lectrons. I guess they made a pretty good attempt at EFI and then reversed course back to Lectrons. That said, if you just want a fun project, then none of that matters. Somebody on DoTheTon had an EFI RD350 that looked pretty cool, so I don't think it's out of the question.

Jeff Miller's 2t project - https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/two-strokes-genius/

Just curious where the best O2 sensor location would be, considering the reversals and all.

My plan is weld the sensor bung just after the header a few inches pointing nearly straight up to prevent any oil from seeping into it. Once I am done the tuning it will be removed. The head temp sensor will only be used to tell the EFI computer that the bike is cold and to richen the mixture (choke) and open the Idle Air Control valve until the bike has gotten up to temp. After that it will have no effect on the a/f ratio.

The thing that has always confused me is Ive always been told that unburned mixture always makes it way into the exhaust system in a two-stroke so how is it that people can use an O2 sensor to tune them?

thats exactly why i suggested an egt. between the 02 and the egt you should get a good overall view of whats going on in the quickest realtime manner possible.

Quote from: m in sc on October 12, 2021, 01:02:56 PM
thats exactly why i suggested an egt. between the 02 and the egt you should get a good overall view of whats going on in the quickest realtime manner possible.

Will defo be running EGT while tuning... but my experience with them from my RZ days tells me to take them with a grain of salt. The RZ would burble at WOT with particular jets... id drop down one jet size and it would pull cleanly. I assume I could have gone leaner but even at this the gauge needle would go past the safe zone (past 1400f I think it was) on the EGT gauge. I put the sensors exactly where the instructions said to as well. I knew a guy that raced old TZ's and he experienced the exact same thing. So there's that lol...

Also, there was a fellow named Smurph on RZ forums that EFI'd an RZ and he tuned the bike with an O2 sensor and he seems to have got it running perfectly. I remember him stating that the bike felt "electric" when talking about how the power was made.... so he musta tuned it pretty good with the O2.... which leaves me scratching my head again.... how are these guys able to do this if even the smallest bit of O2 will throw off the measurements?

I guess I'm about to find out for myself.... im leaning more and more to actually starting this project.

youre going to get mixed results with just an 02 as well. more data is ALWAYS better. 

Quote from: m in sc on October 12, 2021, 01:17:02 PM
youre going to get mixed results with just an 02 as well. more data is ALWAYS better.

More inaccurate data possibly  lol.... I'll just have to be intuitive with the data I am given and make some assumptions based on what the engine is doing. Fingers crossed there are no meltdowns.

I think the wise thing to do is get the VAPE on and running perfectly... then get the O2 sensor on and take readings with the carbs and also the EGT's and put them into spreadsheets. I think without them Id be asking for headaches and trouble.

Quote from: rd400canuck on October 12, 2021, 01:33:50 PM
I think the wise thing to do is get the VAPE on and running perfectly... then get the O2 sensor on and take readings with the carbs and also the EGT's and put them into spreadsheets. I think without them Id be asking for headaches and trouble.

Very good advice.

EGT is really dependent on a lot of variables. It's super useful in a really controlled environment. It's basically worthless riding around town. I record EGT on a Micron XG Log (both cylinders rd350). It's an outdated but rather high end data logger. EGT data is garbage when you aren't full throttle. Even at full throttle there's nothing to learn unless you look at a various other factors.

Lambda is way more reliable.

AIM Data has some info on O2 sensors for 2ts. I think they recommend a Bosch sensor.

you're saying data at full throttle isn't valuable? (j/k). a good set of egts work well at steady throttle openings, ie: wot..(or steady cruise) I mean, small airplanes rely on them ....  Ive had mixed results with egts,but usually boils down to install, and quality of probe and gauge. and maintenance of the probe. this being said, its worthwhile. eventually, if done right, you'll have enough data logged to run a static program thats relying only on rpm and throttle postilion.   

Id def set up the motor, carbed w the vape and all sensors installed, and record the data, then use that as a rough starting baseline for the efi.  .02

A few thoughts:
Piston engined aircraft do indeed rely on EGT readings but they are basically operating at fixed throttle for hours at a time and only make small changes to any control in flight. Motorcycles are the opposite end of that spectrum especially in traffic.

Where an EGT does make sense is on a race bike or on the dyno.  The same with a wideband O2 meter.  On the street the guage would be up and down like a kid on a trampoline and almost impossible to read and even harder to interpret.

I ran wideband O2/Lambda/Air:fuel (call them what you will) on a drag bike via a data logger where the throttle was wide open for the whole run and even at that, the variations were interesting.  On an LSR bike, that data would be useful and potentially so in real time. On a road racer, EGT gauges are useful to glance at down a main straightaway which is one of the few times the bike is wide open and for long enough to read.

EGT might be more useful to anyone with long straight sections of road and few LEOs where they could see what is going on, but the best power can only really be mapped on a dyno and then log EGT and/or mixture at peak power as a reference to compare to when jetting for changing weather at the track.

I agree.  :gentleman: But like said, good for steady throttle openings, like cruising around.  comparing that to wideband at same time will be valuable. Im not saying rely on it-only- not by a long shot.  But it does have valuable data to offer. 

This is great stuff guys! School is in session and there WILL be a test.

Piston engine aircraft need the egt because the mixture is adjustable from the cockpit and is more of a reference to what you set the mixture at. Turbine engine's are much more dependent on egt.

yup, I knew that hence the steady throttle opening thing.

Flew in a small plane years ago in the evening climbing over the mountains with a full load and they did a great job of keeping the motor from melting as it struggled with a full load.  Unfortunately the gauges were all visible and EGTs were waaay up there and the headers could be seen glowing brightly.

The pilot would nudge the mixture or what I assume were timing levers ever so slightly to balance the need for altitude against the need to keep the thing from melting. Imagine if that motor had seized at 8,000.  We would have been stuck up there for ever.  :umm: :whistle:

What we are looking for is usable information.  Masses of data is not the same thing.  And it has to be information that we know how to interpret and do something with.

As Mark mentioned, steady cruise where there's enough time to read a gauge and enough knowledge to know how to interpret the information, then it could be useful. I plan on adding EGT probes on my next drag race bike to see what temps get up to but there's no way I could read them at over 100 PMH, let alone do anything about it.

Quote from: scully on October 12, 2021, 04:07:15 PM
Piston engine aircraft need the egt because the mixture is adjustable from the cockpit and is more of a reference to what you set the mixture at. Turbine engine's are much more dependent on egt.

actually turbine engines are dependent on ITT and fuel flow thus temperature inside the combustion chamber. EGT is important, but not as much as ITT. but then again im only a newbie 747 captain with 30,000 hours :whistle:

i was referring to the hobbyist planes more than anything, piston props. But still. trends on the data will show up vs the o2, and if a head temp is used as well. whos looking at the gauge in this MC application to write a map? (efi) this would all have to be data logged.   

Quote from: m in sc on October 12, 2021, 05:01:13 PM
i was referring to the hobbyist planes more than anything, piston props. But still. trends on the data will show up vs the o2, and if a head temp is used as well. whos looking at the gauge in this MC application to write a map? (efi) this would all have to be data logged.

The ITT is egt just taken between low speed and high speed turbines.

Quote from: m in sc on October 12, 2021, 05:01:13 PM
i was referring to the hobbyist planes more than anything, piston props. But still. trends on the data will show up vs the o2, and if a head temp is used as well. whos looking at the gauge in this MC application to write a map? (efi) this would all have to be data logged.

Exactly. 

EGT is great because the human brain can comprehend it. It's a valuable tool for a human tuning in real time.

Lambda is more appropriate for an ECU. There isn't a particularly good way of using O2 as a human for tuning in real time. It's better left to computers. Even when looking at data for Lambda it generally gets massively smoothed, which is dumb, because A computer can react to it in real time. That's what makes it better. It's just more sensitive.

Quote from: scully on October 12, 2021, 05:18:10 PM

Quote from: m in sc on October 12, 2021, 05:01:13 PM
i was referring to the hobbyist planes more than anything, piston props. But still. trends on the data will show up vs the o2, and if a head temp is used as well. whos looking at the gauge in this MC application to write a map? (efi) this would all have to be data logged.

The ITT is egt just taken between low speed and high speed turbines.

very true..but in the cockpit n1 and epr are the main indications for settings ...the rest of the engine parameters are for info only   usually during engine start when airflow is minimal :thumbs:

thanks for all the input guys.

I really only want the EGT for steady throttle readings... like cruising at 60 kmh 70, 80 90 100 110 ect and wide open. I'll take note of these with my cell phone video recording then write them down at home where I can compare the Speedo and EGT reading. At most I'll have 10 readings from my current carb setup which I feel is pretty good if on the rich side. I'll have these numbers to look at later when I am tuning the fuel table. It'll be nice to know when I am dialing in EFI I am not going too far over these temps... just really to put my mind at ease that I am heading in the right direction.

The O2 logging will also be happening at the same time. I'll have the laptop in my backpack and later I can compare what a/f ratios correspond to which speeds and EGT temps.

Once I know these relationships I think I'll have enough data to ensure I'm not going to melt the piston crowns when dialing in the efi table. That's the plan anyway!

Actually I'm hoping Megasquirt has kept up with the times and I can do all the logging on my phone with Bluetooth.

reading all that stuff about efi made my head hurt !!!  so i went out and ran the piss out of my poor rd !!!  better than taking excedrin  :celebrate:

i used my wideband to tune the holley  in my galaxie. no efi and it worked great.  get textbook readings when driving it now that it's dialed in, so not so sure the 02 needs to be only left to computers.  :whistle:  just saying. any info that can be gained for trends of motor running have value.. and I know fuck all about airplanes  :dawg:

You used something with a display that smoothed the signal? I think it was Klotz that sold a wideband sensor with an LED setup, it was probably sold by many manufacturers, but you could weld a bung in an exhaust, pop the sensor in, and if the lights were green you were in a good range. Cool. That's not the same as closed loop EFI though. It's not even close to recording at like 200hz and then building maps from the data. That's what I'm getting at.

autometer afr gauge in the galaxie. but i have used a dynojet one used on a bike as well to write an efi map that also data logged into a power commander. both have real time readouts (numbers)   :twocents:

I used a relatively cheap Innovate single channel MTX-L which uses a Bosch Wideband O2 sensor, and logged that onto their PL1 logger.  They have expanded their range of gauges  and now sell a neat two channel system. https://g8only.com/product/innovate-motorsports-dlg-1-dual-lambda-airfuel-ratio-gauge/

I had to modify the oil pump arm to add a TPS to it so I could also log throttle position and RPM.  And agree with Mark and Savor that with data logged, it might be able to be interpreted, but real time not so much.

I have a couple questions that I dont have the knowledge to answer...

Lets say I am holding the bike at a steady 5000rpm at 50% (or 70, 80, 90, 100%) throttle under a load.

Can I just add/delete injector pulse width until the bike no longer gains rpms and assume that is the the optimum setting for that rpm/throttle setting for max power?

Also, If i ever want to create my own ignition map.. can I do the same with retard/advance of ignition for a set rpm/throttle, back it off a degree for safety and call it a day?

# of pulses better vs duration to control, and yes timing can and should be adjustable.  lots of options there

Found a Wideband setup... seems pretty decent for the price.

https://www.amazon.ca/Innovate-Motorsports-3877-Wideband-Controller/dp/B00FFTAJPC/ref=sr_1_29?dchild=1&keywords=wideband&qid=1634228998&sr=8-29 (https://www.amazon.ca/Innovate-Motorsports-3877-Wideband-Controller/dp/B00FFTAJPC/ref=sr_1_29?dchild=1&keywords=wideband&qid=1634228998&sr=8-29)

That gets you a Bosch sensor, and LC-2 plus connector to a serial port to data log. If you want to see the data in real time, you have to add a meter.

Quote from: teazer on October 14, 2021, 12:38:22 PM
That gets you a Bosch sensor, and LC-2 plus connector to a serial port to data log. If you want to see the data in real time, you have to add a meter.

I planning on hooking it up to Microsquirt then bluetooth to my phone. There is a megasquirt app for phones.... not sure how well it works tho. Looking into it

OK... everything has been ordered.... god help me (and you guys too, of course) down the rabbit hole I go again  :metal:

Ordered the VAPE from EC, the Microsquirt and R6 throttle bodies.

Still trying to find an external inline efi fuel pump that isnt capable of 250HP...  Id like to draw as little as possible... however the vape has 150w.

Any ideas on fuel pump?

Quote from: rd400canuck on October 13, 2021, 08:30:22 PM
I have a couple questions that I dont have the knowledge to answer...

Lets say I am holding the bike at a steady 5000rpm at 50% (or 70, 80, 90, 100%) throttle under a load.

Can I just add/delete injector pulse width until the bike no longer gains rpms and assume that is the the optimum setting for that rpm/throttle setting for max power?

Also, If i ever want to create my own ignition map.. can I do the same with retard/advance of ignition for a set rpm/throttle, back it off a degree for safety and call it a day?

Yes and no.

At say 100% throttle at say 5,000 rpm, the bike should accelerate.  If you had an eddy current dyno that adjusts the load to keep rpm steady, you could do what you suggested.  You basically set it to run from say 2,500 to peak revs at say 10% throttle and log the A:F and repeat every 10% to see what the "map" is and then adjust it from there to get the A:F you want at any point on the map.  At cruise, you want a fairly lean (not catastrophically lean) condition and as you open the throttle you want to get to power A"F which is much richer. At higher revs and say 0-20% throttle you need to be a little richer to avoid a lean stumble as you slow down.

Quote from: teazer on October 14, 2021, 02:48:14 PM

Quote from: rd400canuck on October 13, 2021, 08:30:22 PM
I have a couple questions that I dont have the knowledge to answer...

Lets say I am holding the bike at a steady 5000rpm at 50% (or 70, 80, 90, 100%) throttle under a load.

Can I just add/delete injector pulse width until the bike no longer gains rpms and assume that is the the optimum setting for that rpm/throttle setting for max power?

Also, If i ever want to create my own ignition map.. can I do the same with retard/advance of ignition for a set rpm/throttle, back it off a degree for safety cushion and call it a day?

Yes and no.

At say 100% throttle at say 5,000 rpm, the bike should accelerate.  If you had an eddy current dyno that adjusts the load to keep rpm steady, you could do what you suggested.  You basically set it to run from say 2,500 to peak revs at say 10% throttle and log the A:F and repeat every 10% to see what the "map" is and then adjust it from there to get the A:F you want at any point on the map.  At cruise, you want a fairly lean (not catastrophically lean) condition and as you open the throttle you want to get to power A"F which is much richer. At higher revs and say 0-20% throttle you need to be a little richer to avoid a lean stumble as you slow down.

OK thats what I was wondering...  I might rent an eddy dyno and a tuner to help me in the future. I was just wondering, since it's a two-stroke, if there is anything funky that can happen if I tune this way. Im fairly certain they do that with 4-strokes... just feed in spark until they get to the point where it is no longer pulling any harder and then they back it off 1 degree for a safety and leave it like that.

Same with fuel... can I hold it at steady rmp and 100% throttle and just increase the fuel until it ceases to pull any harder. In this case I wonder if max power is going to be too hot... but i dont think so. Max power isnt a lean condition afaik.

Quote from: rd400canuck on October 14, 2021, 02:41:16 PM
OK... everything has been ordered.... god help me (and you guys too, of course) down the rabbit hole I go again  :metal:

Ordered the VAPE from EC, the Microsquirt and R6 throttle bodies.

Still trying to find an external inline efi fuel pump that isnt capable of 250HP...  Id like to draw as little as possible... however the vape has 150w.

Any ideas on fuel pump?

Godspeed!

How about a BMW pump from on of their bikes? My father and I fixed an R100 (maybe a K75) a few years ago with some random pump we found online. Unfortunately it's been too long and I don't recall the details. The pump was in tank, so you'd have to navigate that, but I think inline versions exist.

Lots of bikes with carbs used external fuel pumps back in the day.  Two issues with those.  First, the pressure may be insufficient for your EFI which will probably need 3 bar or so, but check on the injectors and what they came from to match them.  Secondly most external fuel pumps on ebay come from China and some of them leak like sieves. I have a few you are welcome to try at no cost.

I suspect that most EFI pumps are in tank and have a return line plumbed in as well.  That's how my old Duc is set up.  Submerged pump and a return line to generate more or less constant pressure when the injectors open and close.  If there is no re-circulation, the pressure will build up during the closed part of the cycle and then the flow rate will be higher than planned for the next cycle and fueling might be all over the map.  I have not tested that hypothesis.  It's just speculation on my part. 

If you look at a power or torque curve for your bike and estimate BSFC at different points, you should be able to work out injector capacity and duty cycle percentage as a series of starting points.  When I did that for a GT750 it basically suggested that injectors large enough for the massive HP I was aiming to extract, they would be so large that they basically were no use at small loads, so that meant I was supposed to go with twin injectors like any decent HP motor.

Shower head injectors were not an option so I kinda shelved that project. I planned to use GSXR 34mm throttle bodies with the secondary throttle shaft removed and plugged.  I think I tripped over them the other day gathering dust.

External pumps like to overheat when you are pushing enough pressure for EFI. That's why in tank has become standard. We fought extensively with this on my fathers hot rod Mini. The tank is only 7 gallons and my father didn't want to submerge a pump because the extra volume is needed, but after like 5 in-line pumps left him broken down we decided to try a submerged pump. It's been going strong for years now.

concerning inline external high pressure fuel pumps I think they need to be in a return feed setup and this is what keeps them cool. The R6 fuel rail has the pressure regulator on it and a nozzle for the return line back to the tank using the fuel tank as a heat exchanger for cooling. There are some guys around who've used these pumps on Rz's and i cant really remember anyone of them experiencing issues with them.

I havent looked into the R6 injectors but I seem to think they run at 67 psi something like that EDIT... looked it up, it runs at 45psi... and other bikes i see now, like the ninja 400, seem to be set for 45psi. I plan on using the stock regulator so im good to go with the stock injectors.

Im fairly certain the Walbro external replacement pumps for something like the econoline vans of old are of good quality. Fingers crossed!

I think this will be a good choice from a trusted maker...   https://walbrofuelpumps.com/walbro-gsl393-fuel-pump.html (https://walbrofuelpumps.com/walbro-gsl393-fuel-pump.html)

Walbro pumps are exactly the pumps we smoked multiple times on my father's Mini. They are probably okay pumps, the layout of the Mini is particularly strenuous (hot). The pumps are pretty noisy, which is a big drawback in my opinion.

I'm sure you'll regulate fuel pressure, so all you need is a pump that can exceed the regulated pressure.

Quote from: sav0r on October 14, 2021, 05:37:50 PM
Walbro pumps are exactly the pumps we smoked multiple times on my father's Mini. They are probably okay pumps, the layout of the Mini is particularly strenuous (hot). The pumps are pretty noisy, which is a big drawback in my opinion.

I'm sure you'll regulate fuel pressure, so all you need is a pump that can exceed the regulated pressure.

Do you know if youre father had a return line or not on his setup? I can see them burning out if there is not constant fuel flow cooling them.

Yes there was a return.

The car is rather tightly packaged and ambient heat was high around the pump. Keep in mind the car is mid engine and has to move fuel from the front of the car where the fuel tank is located to the engine in the middle of the car. The fuel lines run along side coolant lines through a tunnel between the seats inside the car. The example isn't particularly relevant to what you are trying to achieve, except that we just had bad reliability with those pumps. The Walbro pumps we had were all very loud, even for a car. They get even louder when they are getting ready to crap out.

I did notice when looking through all the EFI pumps available that people were leaving comments and saying how quiet certain ones were.... I better look for them again and see which ones they were talking about.

R6 throttle bodies arrived.. parts are rolling in.

Anyone have ideas on how I might attach them to the intake boots?  EC sells a pair of boots for larger carbs... Id like to order them if I knew I could get this suckers in them.

In the other pic you can see my plan so far... cut the fuel rail to length then cut and weld back together. The tab on the throttle will need to be extended to reach the other' tab. Also each body has it's own spring to close the butterfly valve however the the one that has the throttle cables attach was about 3 times stronger than the others. I despise tough to twist throttles so I took one of the weaker ones off an unused body and replaced it. Feels way better.

Testing will show whether or not I keep the vacuum operated slides in them. Im assuming these are needed on the R6 to smooth out off idle so the bike isnt as jerky but the RD wont have vacuum like a 4-stroke. I will test with and without them and see if they need to be yanked up permanently.

Datsun used external Bosch fuel pumps on the 280 Z's and ZX's that don't die..

Plenty of capacity but rather large...

The EFI 1986 GoldWing SEi used a high pressure pump almost identical (I used one to replace a failing OEM pump) to an automotive pump that you could pick up at a parts store for ~$109. But, you still need a fuel pressure regulator on the rail to circulate extra pressure back to the tank.

Quote from: pidjones on October 15, 2021, 07:22:23 PM
The EFI 1986 GoldWing SEi used a high pressure pump almost identical (I used one to replace a failing OEM pump) to an automotive pump that you could pick up at a parts store for ~$109. But, you still need a fuel pressure regulator on the rail to circulate extra pressure back to the tank.

I found this replacement for the EFI Goldwing https://www.highflowfuel.com/qfs-oem-replacement-external-efi-fuel-pump-for-honda-goldwing-gl1200-efi-1986-replaces-16700-ml8-751/?sku=HFP-603-56711&gclid=CjwKCAjwzaSLBhBJEiwAJSRokryt5Iz74ckGoplYkQ-szud7D8kGmtufeNzyG95f6IVWWZ_Fng3pHxoCytoQAvD_BwE (https://www.highflowfuel.com/qfs-oem-replacement-external-efi-fuel-pump-for-honda-goldwing-gl1200-efi-1986-replaces-16700-ml8-751/?sku=HFP-603-56711&gclid=CjwKCAjwzaSLBhBJEiwAJSRokryt5Iz74ckGoplYkQ-szud7D8kGmtufeNzyG95f6IVWWZ_Fng3pHxoCytoQAvD_BwE)

and used their part number to find this in caanda...   https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B01N4UW7LY/ref=sw_img_1?smid=&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B01N4UW7LY/ref=sw_img_1?smid=&psc=1)

Looks promising

Finding an external EFI pump that is less than 190L per minute and not super expensive is looking impossible. I'll settle on this one for now. I have a regulator right on the stock R6 fuel rail so all good there.

look what I found... 

https://www.amazon.ca/Carbpro-16700-HP5-602-FOREMAN-RANCHER-TRX420/dp/B088LXHKTL/ref=sr_1_5?dchild=1&keywords=HONDA+FOREMAN+RANCHER+fuel+pump&qid=1634409884&sr=8-5 (https://www.amazon.ca/Carbpro-16700-HP5-602-FOREMAN-RANCHER-TRX420/dp/B088LXHKTL/ref=sr_1_5?dchild=1&keywords=HONDA+FOREMAN+RANCHER+fuel+pump&qid=1634409884&sr=8-5)

Still trying to find specs on it but its EFI pump for honda foreman. A little bulky but unless I find something better this is what will go in. Obvs my concern is amp draw and the smallest walbro pump i can find is 6amps so this should be way better than that.

ok, parts are rolling in... in balls deep now. Should be an interesting winter in the garage.

Still trying to find a fuel pump that is suitable.

Got my Vape from EC :)

I just wanted to ask... where is the ECU that controls spark curve? It seems its right in the coil assy to me. And if so... now I'm wondering when I get my Microsquirt to take over ignition duty will I have to replace the VAPE coil for one with no ECU in it?

Quote from: rd400canuck on October 23, 2021, 01:07:16 PM
Got my Vape from EC :)

I just wanted to ask... where is the ECU that controls spark curve? It seems its right in the coil assy to me. And if so... now I'm wondering when I get my Microsquirt to take over ignition duty will I have to replace the VAPE coil for one with no ECU in it?

On the vape I do believe the ecu is in the voltage regulator. The coil is just a coil. However, as you can see the VR is filled in at the factory with the goop. But, my understanding of the VAPE is it is static timed? Or am I wrong... Mark? lol

Ah ok that makes sense Striker... Im not sure why I was thinking there was an ECU on this setup with an iggy curve in it. I think I was thinking it was like the HPI that has an ECU and curve programmed into it. Ok so it's basically got a flat curve... thats fine actually.. I only wanted the VAPE for the 150w it puts out...The Microsquirt I purchased with control the spark and I'll be able to program in a curve.

I cant speak to the ones with the integrated curves, not even sure if they are available any more. the ones i have are all static. theres no ecm to speak of. the vr and ignition are not actually connected in any way. 2 of the ones i have are running with a zeel box to control curve and rev-limiter.

the hpi i have has a curve and does have an ign box it runs thru, but its tiny.

:twocents:

Quote from: m in sc on October 26, 2021, 01:36:28 PM
I cant speak to the ones with the integrated curves, not even sure if they are available any more. the ones i have are all static. theres no ecm to speak of. the vr and ignition are not actually connected in any way. 2 of the ones i have are running with a zeel box to control curve and rev-limiter.

the hpi i have has a curve and does have an ign box it runs thru, but its tiny.

:twocents:

The HPI works pretty good.. I had it on my RD40 for a week before I took it off.  I'm looking forward to dialing in a curve when I get the Microsquirt to take over ignition duty.

Hi again,

Anyone have any input on Speed Density over Alpha-N fuel map?

The SD route will only see a minor vacuum... 80-100 and it'll be jumpy as well with only two cylinders. I know I can out a fuel filter on the vacuum line to act as a buffer to smoothen the pulses out tho.

But AN looks like I should think about trying it, too. I'm going for a 12x12 fuel table... im thinking 16x16 will be overkill for a bike that wont go past 8000rpm and just be more of a headache to tune with so many cells to dial in.

I'm still pouring over any material I can find on the pros and cons of the two.. thought Id hit you guys up while I'm at it.

P.S.
Did I mention I got my Vape from EC? What a high quality piece of kit it looks like, really impressed with the craftsmanship in it. Am looking forward to getting this thing on the bike.

Got the vape on and running. I just gotta go over it all again and make sure nothing is lose. Already blew a fuse with a dangling wire. Thank god for chucks how-to.. it walked me right through it.

Id better ckeck the timing properly...i had to back the idle screws out more than an entire turn to get it idle at 1200rpm. The mid seemed a little stronger and the top end seemed a little wooly. Im think i have too much advance in it.

Hi guys... I seem to remember an equation that would figure out how many degrees of rotation of crank take place when the piston crown drops say 2mm.

Anyone know it?

edit.. just checked timing and it's at 2.1mm so am gonna leave it as is (unless it's supposed to be 1.8mm? or is that for 350's?). I dont think the bike was warmed up fully when I test drove it yesterday and it felt weak up top. I went for another good run today and it seems to behaving exactly as it did when the points where on it... just feels smoother somehow. I absolutely love the VAPE ignition. I'm not sure if it's because its the cold air, only 8c/46f here, but the bike was really running well.

The bike's absolutely run better with a VAPE. Easier to start, better throttle response and all.

Well.... it must be the VAPE then. One thing I noticed after i set everything up and started it for the first time it was really revving high and I had to turn the idle screws out an entire turn to get it to settle at 1200rpm. Seems to me if the timing is the same it would idle the same. I wonder if I never had the points set up properly in the first place.

I have some EGT probes on order and have a CHT here as well. Next thing I will do is install the microsquirt and go make some runs and log what the temps are so I have that data to compare against after I switch it over to EFI. I bought an O2 sensor and controller but I'm on the fence if I want to drill into my stock pipe and well a bung to it.

If timing is too retarded the bike will idle real low. Will lack character when riding too. If the timing is advanced, the idle will smooth out a bit and it will punch harder when ridden. The sweet spot prevents a loss of power or a hole in your piston.

Dis you verify it with a timing light per Chuck's write up?

Yup, I checked it with a timing light and it is 2.1 mm.

Not really sure why I had to turn down the idle so much... all I can think is that I had the points ignition messed up somehow but I didnt really notice any issues with engine characteristics.

One other thing I noticed is that it didnt seem to surge at all now when I close the throttle and coast to a stop. There was always a little of it when it dropped to around 3000rpm and lower but it seems to be gone. It just seems smoother everywhere now.

High idle could have been a slight air leak too. But, if it isn't idling funny anymore, then I'd run it. Especially if the air screws cause the engine to change characteristics.

Well... i have all winter perhaps i should tear the motor down and check everything. Ive been driving it for 2 summers now since full revuild. Cant hurt to make sure everything is within spec. Not like i can do any tuning of the efi until late spring anyways.

Anyone know any good resources on two stroke ignition timing? I want to know as much as possible before i start tuning in an igntion map.

Does the MicroSquirt accomodate a dedicated cold startup map?

Quote from: sav0r on November 08, 2021, 10:06:02 AM
Does the MicroSquirt accomodate a dedicated cold startup map?

It does.

as far as cold starting is concerned I have ordered an automotive solenoid air valve to let in some extra air for higher revs during warm up. I'll just tune the inlet until i get it revving at 2200rpm or so and itll close once warm enough.

I can actually tune how high it will allow rpm to go if it is not fully warm. Doubt I'll use that feature though as I know to take it real easy on the bike if i dont give it enough time to come up to temp.

The reason i asked is because you mentioned the two ways to adjust mixture.

With a dedicated cold startup map, things get so much easier. Most race cars don't run closed loop, they just load the right map for the conditions manually. Of course that seems like a lot of work (changing maps manually all the time), except that with cold startup the hot run maps might only need to be changed like three times a year. I assume fuel economy isn't a major concern... There are less map changes if you aren't running all winter long. Alpha N is the best option, but it introduces a lot of testing and messing around that I'm not sure you will really benefit from.

That said, it seems you are approaching this as a challenge and something you find to be fun, so in that sense I encourage you to push yourself as hard as your prefer.

You are correct! Only doing this for the enjoyment and experience... need a project over the winter.

Im going to install everything in a way that allows me to put the carbs back on in a jiffy and be able to ride. I wish I had a damn dyno, that would make everything so much easier to tune. Id like to see just how good I can get a total stock bike to run with custom iggy map and fuel maps. I'm not too worried about tuning the fuel map but I do worry about the ign map. Id hate to destroy my motor trying to find the best advance for each rpm. My plan is program in the HPI ign curve because I already had that on my bike and it liked it and didnt melt on me. After than I'll carefully play with advance/retard and see what I can come up with.

Im also fairly certain I can get Speed density to work. The RD400 might have a little more vacuum signal to work with than the RZ I tried in the past (80 to 100), maybe.. and also there is no crossover tube that allowed the vacuum to draw from the other side... im guessing without this tube I'll see more of a vacuum.

Ordered a fuel pump from Aliexpress... 45lph and only draws 2.5 amps so 30 watts or so. Hopefully its not a piece of junk.

Did a little test to see what kind of vacuum signal the RD gives me and it wasn't good. However, I used the oil injection nozzles for vacuum so when I use the actual throttle bodies with their proper vacuum ports it might be better but at this point it doesnt look good for Speed Denisty for the fuel table. The signal spiked between 100 and 80... completely unusable.

Hi guys.... been reading about dwell time as there are settings in the Microsquirt in milliseconds to set...  From looking at the ignition coil I dont think this is a CDI and is an actual coil.

Can anyone shed light on dwell time for me in this case with a VAPE?

deleted

dwell in regard to what? ignition fire time, or trigger length, or injector pulse signal?  yes the vape is a cdi. the circuit is in the coil.

Hey m in sc,

I was wondering about dwell time for coil I am guessing one would call it. I got some incorrect info on the microsquirt forum and was told VAPE is not a CDI type ignition. I have since figured out that it is and am told there is no dwell time for the coil... the cap just takes the juice that is sent to it until the ignitor circuit contained within the coil housing gets a signal from the VR sensor.

The microsquirt has a setting for this called 'Time after spark' and it was suggested I set the dwell time for the spark to 1 millisecond and that'd be long enough a signal to allow all the stored energy to make a spark. Im not certain why at this point but I couldnt select 1 so I put in 0.9ms

Originally I was only going to have the MS control the fuel but after my time with the HPI ignition I figured it made sense to use it to add in a spark curve. I needed the VAPE anyways for the 150 watts to run the fuel pump and the MS will fire the VAPE CDI/coil assy. My intention is to set it to static 10 degrees to mimic stock timing and then make sure the bike runs and feels similar and all is working as it should then program in the HPI curve.

fyi stock isnt 10. its closer to 22 on a 400, 19.9 on a 350. just fyi.

Quote from: m in sc on November 30, 2021, 12:36:09 PM
fyi stock isnt 10. its closer to 22 on a 400, 19.9 on a 350. just fyi.

Oh! I have no idea why but I was always under the assumption stock for rd400 was 10 btdc. Thanks for cluing me into that. I am planning on printing out a degree wheel and putting it on the vape flywheel to check for tdc and stock timing.. and afterwards the hpi curve i program in.

I'm now also looking into building a hydraulic pump dyno. For the cost of a couple dyno sessions I can build my own. Would be so great to hold the bike at a steady rpm and throttle % and adjust the fueling and spark while I keep an eye on EGT's, CLT and probably the O2 readings. If I go this route it wont be till summer. Just starting my research now.

The confusion may come from some of the old advance curves on line that show 10 degrees of advance in some CDI units back in the day, but that wasn't the static timing.  That 10 degrees was initial advance over stock static timing of 19 degrees on a TZ, so the "curve" was 19 at start, rising to 29 or so at low revs and dropping back to 19 degrees by 10,000 RPM.

Not sure if that's where 10 came from, but it's easy to be confused by the info online.

just realized i never uploaded  this.  also added in the tech library under 'ignition'

(https://www.2strokeworld.net/wp-content/uploads/general-tech/ignitions/MMTODEGREES_zps8b09298d.jpg)

Thanks guys!

Ive been reading and researching the hydraulic pump dyno... so many guys start out to build them and then the threads just stop and they are never heard from again. I did find a few guys who completed their projects and am learning things not to do for a decent setup. I'm fairly certain I will set out to build my own, they seem pretty straight forward. A sufficient pump and needle valve aint cheap but if i do this right I'll be able to hold it at a certain rpm and throttle open and with a load cell I'll be able to add/remove fuel and spark and have it plotted out in real time so I can see where max torque is produced then back things off so advance and fuel are on a good safe setting. I'll be monitoring EGT and O2 so hopefully this should prevent me from melting anything.

I think it'll be worth it in the end if I can arrive at a good tune and the get the most from this motor in stock form. Better money into this dyno rather than rebuilding a melted motor.

Right now just waiting for EGT amplifier boards and fuel pump then I can slowly get started. Should be an interesting winter.

Just want to pass this by everyone... for feedback...

The pump im planning on getting has a max of 36hp. The ones big enough to handle the RD400 are too much $$$$

My plan is to only do one side at a time. I will remove the rings from one piston and leave the head off. I will apply some bearing grease to the cylinder walls so that there is always lubrication. This side wont be getting fuel, either, obviously. I will then run the bike powered by the other cylinder and tune its spark and fuel tables. This way I wont have to buy and expensive pump and can get the $150 instead. I'll be dealing with less flow and pressures as well which I'm happy about. Then I can follow the same procedure on the other side.

Anyone see any issues with this? I'm assuming the un-powered piston will be fine revving for periods of time while I tune the other side but I want to make sure I'm not missing anything.

Here is the pump I'm currently considering.
https://www.amazon.ca/Hydraulic-1-4in3-4-15gpm-31-3HP-3000psi/dp/B091JR95PG/ref=sr_1_7?keywords=hydraulic%2Bgear%2Bpump&qid=1638385538&sr=8-7&th=1 (https://www.amazon.ca/Hydraulic-1-4in3-4-15gpm-31-3HP-3000psi/dp/B091JR95PG/ref=sr_1_7?keywords=hydraulic%2Bgear%2Bpump&qid=1638385538&sr=8-7&th=1)

can you under drive it by, lets say 1:2 and then double reading for output numbers?

just spitballing.

The issue I see is the flow between cylinders that exists in the bottom end. The labyrinth seal isn't air tight. It allows flow between the two. Also the little end bearing and main bearings get fed lubricant through pressure dispersion in the bottom end. Without a spark plug sure, go to town for short runs, but  without the head, or supply to one side or the other... I wouldn't. just my 2 cents.

Hmmm... never thought about that seal... bugger.

As for the big and small end bearing on the none powered side I was planning on putting bearing grease on them as well through the intake port. Now that I think about it I'm going to have the cyl off to remove the rings so I'll just grease them up good then.

I dont think gearing the pump down will work.. the needle valve will still need to deal with pressure regardless of gpm and the pump can only take so much pressure. To keep the motor at a steady rpm and full throttle there would be less flow but the pressure would be too high for the pump rating. I am planning on gearing it down anyways... Id like to keep the rpms in a swath that will work for all engine rpms..  500 to 2500rpm... under 500 its not smooth running and the pump manufacturer recommends min 500 for best operation.

I think I'll trying my method and see what happens... as long as the proper mixture ratio is being sent into the crankcase I should see the combustion properties even if some of it escapes to the other side....   unless it sucks some clean air back in.

Perhaps I will have to just remove the rings... grease everything up. have the head on and have the injector operating but no spark. That way anything that goes between the two cylinders will have the same air/fuel ratio

Anyone know how I can calculate the counter sprocket rpm in each gear vs engine rpm?

math.

rpm x primary ratio x gear ratio of given gear = output shaft rpm. (primary and gear ratio in decimal format).

  that easy.

ok perfect... I guess I could have figured that out if i had thought about it for a second  lol.

I have been looking into the gear pump dyno and there is a place called Princess Auto and the parts I need are pretty reasonable... except the needle valve... $80 cdn :(   There are loads on ebay etc for half the price but specs are skint. I need to make sure it's good for 3000psi and at least 20 gpm. more searching needed.

I've decided since im going to all this expense and effort (i love doing it, tho) I should just go ahead and start building the dyno. I'll have a 0-5v 20kg load cell with a 12inch arm and 1lb = 1 ft.lb torque. I can calculate hp with engine rpm If im interested in that. Not sure how accurate it will be but at least it will be repeatable. Since the load cell is 0-5v I can actually feed it into one of the sensor inputs on the Microsquirt and it will graph out in real time along with throttle %, rpm, spark advance, injector pulse, O2,EGT as well as CHT.

I should be able to hold it at a steady rpm and throttle and then add/remove fuel and spark and immediately see a torque curve and know where max is then back off and keep things in a good safe zone. I have no desire to tune this thing on the bleeding edge.

So now I will turn my attention to building the dyno and testing it with current carbs and static timing so I can see before and after.

Gonna be a fun winter.

trying to regulate flow? consider a v port valve. (this is actually what i do for a living ;) )

Quote from: m in sc on December 02, 2021, 11:58:40 AM
trying to regulate flow? consider a v port valve. (this is actually what i do for a living ;) )

Will that give me more linear control?

I notice on youtube some guys with needle valves hit a very narrow area of the knob that bogs the engine to the desired rpm and the littlest turn more will drop rpm significantly. This is one of my concerns actually... id like a valve that will get me a nice linear control over the motor without hitting a wall.

Quote from: m in sc on December 02, 2021, 10:52:29 AM
math.

rpm x primary ratio x gear ratio of given gear = output shaft rpm. (primary and gear ratio in decimal format).

  that easy.

I seem to be doing something wrong...   for first gear;

7500 x 2.869 x 2.571 = 55,321 rpm

Should I be dividing it?  I get 1,017 rpm in that case

yeah that looks wrong.

for example, rpm at 5000 rpm. if the primary is 34 teeth by 64. 34/64= 0.531 which would give the input shaft speed at 2656.25 rpm. and so forth.
then, for example, if 1st gear is .68..   2656.25 x .68 = 1806.25 rpm at output shaft.  and so on.

the primary is always there. also, those numbers I gave are NOT for the rd, i just listed it as an example. I'm -sure- somebody (socal250?) has the ratio info somewhere. I dont right now.

and yes, v ports are linear flow depending where they are and flow a lot better than a needle valve.  (volume that is).  you can get them in keyhole style, 15, 30, 60 and 90 degree v depending where you get them.  we sell them in packages with 4-20 mA positioners on a regular basis.  you can control them manually as well.



 

Thanks for info on v ball valves,

I am getting primary and gear ratios for the RD400 from this site's archives. I'll have another look at the numbers. They also list a secondary.. should that be put into the calcs?

file:///C:/Users/johnh/Downloads/Yamaha%20RD400C%20RD400D%20Parts%20Catalog.pdf (http://file:///C:/Users/johnh/Downloads/Yamaha%20RD400C%20RD400D%20Parts%20Catalog.pdf)

secondary usually refers to chain and sprocket.  .02


what pressures are you looking at on this line? that's going to be one of the biggest factors on valve choice. .if its going to be over 3000 psi then you're probably going to have to go with a parker style needle valve or the like.

As Mark pointed out, secondary ratio is referring to sprockets
Here's the ratio info for the trans and primary. From looking at your previous numbers it appears that you probably already have this
Primary: 66/23  2.869

Hey guys,

The pump I think will be around max 3000psi and 3000rpm 20gpm (depends on which one, another has 3500rpm max) but I need to buy the correct toothed sprocket for the pump to be driven off the stock toothed sprocket on the bike so that in whatever gear I choose for the runs it is within the rpm limits of the pump while the bike is revving from 2000 to 8000rpm. I'm hoping there is a combo of counter sprocket and pump sprocket that will allow me to stay in one hear and do all my rpm holds on the bike. Most of the pumps I'm looking at suggest a min of 600rpms for smooth operation.

Was just at Princess auto and the place is like candy store. They have everything I will need to build this thing. They didnt have any v ball valves tho... just the $80 needle valve I see most guys using.  It's rated for 3000psi and the 4 ft hoses are rated for 3500psi.

I think this pump is good for what I need  https://www.princessauto.com/en/197-gpm-hydraulic-gear-pump/product/PA0008375446 (https://www.princessauto.com/en/197-gpm-hydraulic-gear-pump/product/PA0008375446)

yeah, highest rated v port valve ive seen is 2000 psi, wont work.  that place looks fun.  :haw:

hey, have you seen this? guys doing a 400 now on the FB rd group.

oooo

Wow that is a very cool bike and setup! I had no idea anyone had gone about it with an aircooled RD. I wonder if he is using the stock ignition. He's running a missing tooth setup so I'm assuming he's controlling spark unless the ECU he used isnt able to get ign pulse through coil with an opto isolator like I can with the Microsquirt but since Im doing ign curve as well I'll use the VR sensor of the Vape.

It said he tuned by the seat of his pants and logging during rides. Thats what I was planning on doing but I wouldnt even dare tune a ignition curve by the seat of my pants. Thankfully the dyno im building will be able to hold steady rpm and plot torque curve as I mess with spark and fuel.

Annoys me though... every time I see someone EFI'ing a two-stroke they always point out they are using O2 sensor but never acknowledge the unburnt oxygen that might be effing up the readings. I have an O2 that I will use but I wont trust it. Actually I have an idea on how to avoid the scavenging cycle unburnt fuel issue.. once I flesh it out I'll pass it by you guys. One thing at a time! Im finalizing in my head how exactly I will build frame to hold the pump between the swingarm and have the bike's stock chain drive it.

jump on fb and reach out to him.  :gentleman:

I got rid of FB ages ago.. too much drama with my bonkers family.

I found this calculator for gear pump hp. I put 3000 psi and 17 gpm and it says 31 hp.

http://www.metaris.com/hp-calculator.php (http://www.metaris.com/hp-calculator.php)

Can I assume this means I can run a 31hp engine on it? If so I think it's a safe pump for 1 powered cylinder at a time like I was planning. I think the most I'll see is 20hp from 1 cylinder.

Quote from: rd400canuck on December 03, 2021, 07:42:55 PM
Wow that is a very cool bike and setup! I had no idea anyone had gone about it with an aircooled RD. I wonder if he is using the stock ignition. He's running a missing tooth setup so I'm assuming he's controlling spark unless the ECU he used isnt able to get ign pulse through coil with an opto isolator like I can with the Microsquirt but since Im doing ign curve as well I'll use the VR sensor of the Vape.

It said he tuned by the seat of his pants and logging during rides. Thats what I was planning on doing but I wouldnt even dare tune a ignition curve by the seat of my pants. Thankfully the dyno im building will be able to hold steady rpm and plot torque curve as I mess with spark and fuel.

Annoys me though... every time I see someone EFI'ing a two-stroke they always point out they are using O2 sensor but never acknowledge the unburnt oxygen that might be effing up the readings. I have an O2 that I will use but I wont trust it. Actually I have an idea on how to avoid the scavenging cycle unburnt fuel issue.. once I flesh it out I'll pass it by you guys. One thing at a time! Im finalizing in my head how exactly I will build frame to hold the pump between the swingarm and have the bike's stock chain drive it.

We only ever used O2 on carbureted motors, generally we recorded it at around 100hz. This was used to adjust the carb on track as well as after sessions, depending on the type of carb. But the recorded numbers are only relative to yourself. You will have to establish a baseline. The scavenging cycle may push your readings up or down, but assuming the scavenging cycle is consistent (it should be) you just scale your table accordingly. It doesn't matter what readings you actually get as long you can establish where they are when the bike is running properly. For a production vehicle the approach would be different, you'd aim for an ideal reading. You don't have to worry about that because you are doing this once. That's where the dyno is going to be invaluable. I also bet you get slightly different readings cylinder to cylinder. I know my EGT's are never the same left to right, even with everything theoretically the same.

Thanks for the feedback, savOr :)

Thats pretty much my plan.. I'll be doing carbureted and stock ignition timing runs on the dyno and plotting EGT, CHT and O2 readings.. as well as torque produced. I ordered a 30kg load cell to plot that as well. It'll be invaluable data to have and compare against.

I just wish I had it as good as the 4-stroke guys with their O2 readings cause they get to know exactly what air/fuel ratio they are burning but I think with the outputs I have I should fair pretty good.

I have access to a 12x12 or 16x16 fuel and spark tables but I think since this bike can't reach 8000 rpm 16x16 tables is overkill. Plus 12x12 will be less of a headache to work with. I'm thinking about recording everything I do so everyone can follow along on youchoob and give me feedback and ideas on how I might do things differently. This is all a first for me so the more brains I have access to, the better.

Been collecting parts...  just need to find an old propane tank to use as a reservoir.

Why not run something like a Ski Doo O2 sensor? They run them on their E-tec machines as well as EGT sensors. Sure they don't burn as much oil anymore, but they're designed for 2t use and indeed see some oil.
https://www.powersportsid.com/ski-doo-exhaust-oxygen-sensors/

And are parts from/for the KTM/Husqvarna injected 2-strokes useful to this project?

Hey... weekend is almost here :)

I was looking into O2 sensors for two-strokes but the more i read the more it seemed like that are just regular heated O2 sensors... some two-stroke bungs are longer to keep the sensor out of direct exhaust flow, tho. I wont be drilling a massive hole into my stock pipes and welding anything to them... dont want to damage the chrome and it'll just look ugly. I have an idea on how to get exhaust gasses without having to do that... and if I dont go that route I will build an O2 sniffer and just stuff it in the end while I do my testing.

I think those O2 sensors in the E-Tecs last because those machines barely burn oil at all. Im guessing their oil injection systems send oil right the the cylinder walls and crank negating the need to use loads of oil because most of it will tumble out the exhaust. I think, anyway. I'll look that up sometime.

Did you see the price of those EGT's on ski-doo website?  ha! ha!   $100.94 - $182.64   effing crazy, what a scam.

I'm not even going to drill into my header pipes for the EGT's. I found a couple on fleabay that are rusted to hell. They will be used for testing. I wouldnt dream of ruining my stock ones.. the chrome is perfect. Once I get the Dyno working and sorted I will make loads of runs at each throttle % and rpm and log all the data. That will be enough for me to work with I imagine.

I was out in the garage... removed the rear wheel and fender to make room... sizing things up at this point. I think I have arrived at a good plan of action of how the dyno cradle will be built and sit back there. I found out these gear pumps use gears and chains with #40, #50 etc sizes and lucky me none of them fit a 520 chain. I ended up with a #50 because it has the same pitch but it's way too thick so Ive been trying to grind it narrower and evenly. pain in the rear :(

Yeah we always just ran regular heated sensors. We'd buy them from AIM Technologies because they came ready to plug in to our data acq., but as long as the unit outputs in the range you can handle, just about any unit will work. We did foul them up fairly often, so cheaper might be better.

The first few we tried were not heated, and they fouled VERY quickly.

Ya i imagine a non heated would fould up fast. My idea to get exhaust gases from the combustion chamber involves tapping into the little passage above the exhiast port and feeding it to a small chamber housing the O2 sensor. The outlet from the O2 chamber will be smaller than the inlet. My thinking is this will keep the pressure high enough in it so no intake charge can be pushed back into it. The combustion chamber pessure should be pretty low at that part of the stroke on its way back up.

Hey guys,

Anyone know if I can weld stainless steel fittings to mild steel (propane tank) without having to buy 308l wire?  I'm hoping regular steel wire will do the trick even if it aint pretty. Damn stuff is $50 a roll and I'll probably never need it again

it'll do it.

Quote from: m in sc on December 13, 2021, 11:24:29 PM
it'll do it.

Youre a good man but thatll be one hell of a drive!

It'll do it. Not me. But send it down i have stainless wire i'll tig it up.  :gentleman:

Quote from: m in sc on December 14, 2021, 11:29:03 AM
It'll do it. Not me. But send it down i have stainless wire i'll tig it up.  :gentleman:

Oops!   lol didnt have my glasses on.

I'm going to give it a go this weekend with regular steel wire. It dioesnt have to be an ultra strong weld or look nice. just gotta be water tight so no oil leaks happen.

Got everything I need to weld the the parts together that are gonna hold the pump in the swing arm. Thank god I didnt set out to do it right away... as I was collecting parts I kept going over the plan in my head and the design got simpler and simpler. When you guys see it you'll think "ya, of course, how else would you do it?" but at first I was going to build a frame to hold it up and have cushion bearings holding the pump and part of the pump frame would extend to the swing arm pivot hold the pump back with threaded rods to adjust tension for the chain. Keep in mind I have to make it so the pump can rotate... it wont, obviously, but it has to be able to so that it can press down on the load cell as it wants to rotate itself. So... I had all kinds of cookoo ideas. The final plan is nice and simple and bare minimum and miles easier to build.

Also finishing up the code in the arduino that will manage the two stepper motors. I ordered a larger biopolar motor... its way faster. It can rotate 180 in a flash or step 1.8 degrees at a time with loads of torque. In the micro squirt there are parameters for acceleration fuel. It goes by how fast you twist the throttle and will squirt some extra fuel in... just like a accel pump on a carb but way more adjustable. With the faster stepper I can do a series of jabs at the throttle, all identical then compare which numbers gave me the most torque. Should have a nice throttle response after that.

As I have been saying... that's the plan anyways

Well... I knew dealing with aliexpress would be a risk. They sent a full sized automotive efi pump and not the low amp draw 45lpg I ordered.

Should be fun dealing with these clowns in an effort to get what I order.. and waited 7 weeks to get.  :(

For the O2 sensor, you can use any Bosch 4.9 wide band as long as you fit it far enough away from the barrels and also from the outlet end of the pipe.  Mount it on a bung extender to move the tip out of the oily gas stream and mount it on the top of the pipe and you should be OK.

Aliexpress is always an adventure. I avoid it, but sometimes I get tempted.

Quote from: sav0r on December 22, 2021, 01:43:30 PM
Aliexpress is always an adventure. I avoid it, but sometimes I get tempted.

To be honest... after this ongoing experience, and from countless others after a google search,  I wonder why anyone would use that website at all. Its scammer central.

Not only did they send me the wrong pump... they sent me a cheap $12 car pump. I opened a dispute asking for my money back they literally replied "it's ok" and denied refund. Still another day to go before Aliexpress has to step in but it just shows me these dirtbags have no fear of aliepxress and their 'policies'. I wish I was in china so I could go find this guy and kick his teeth in. I knew this might not go smoothly but I never realized just how bad it can get. Time will tell if I even get my money back.

I'll never use that site again, obviously, but i have to wonder why Aliexpress allows such blatant scamming to run so rampant. They must be losing so many potential users of their site and losing profit.

yeah... aliexpress no way. these days, its like the industrial version of 'wish'.

I've had decent luck on their actually, though most recently I ordered half a dozen of one item and only got two. lol

They were the right items, and they sent the remaining four. I have had better luck on AliBaba, which while they are the same company, are directed less to consumers and more to industry. So they don't like disputing items because they are trying to make legit volume contacts. That said, it's still pretty sketchy.

I've had a few items that I wanted from the Ali sites turn up on Amazon and eBay recently. Those sites of course have good consumer protections.

Tank looks like RD400, side covers cross between 400 and 350.  https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003489362584.html

Found a pump that draws 5amps so around 60watts or so. More than I was hoping but the Vape's output should be able to keep up with it. I'll keep trying to get my paws on a low draw 25lph from china but good grief... its like every scammer on the planet lives there.

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/274988032154 (https://www.ebay.ca/itm/274988032154)

It's rated for 30lph so more than enough for me. At least I can get one on this continent and not have to deal with those scumbag sellers in china.

Pics of the pump setup coming soon. Its pretty much all done just wanna test fit it. Bought a Lincoln fluxcore welder from my bro for $50.. its brand new. Its not a true mig but it'll be fine for me and the stuff I'm doing. I laid a bead on some metal he had here and it sounded good, no crazy spatter like I imagined and the weld look awesome so I'm happy with getting it.

Update time...

Got the pump frame sorted out and hooked up all the fitting and hoses. I scored a flux core welder from my bro.... took a little practice lol welds are nasty. Havent got oil in the system yet. Need to get the exhausts back on and slowly start testing. After Im happy with the way it operates and isnt leaking anywhere I'll add the microsquirt and wire that in and start the process. Once thats working I'll add the CHT and EGT, load sensor to measure torque and probably the O2 and start logging some runs to see what the numbers are on current carbs.

I\ build the frame that holds the pump so that it can rotate a little so that it can push on the load sensor.

Gonna be a lot of trial and error to get all this working properly.

First I put the valve in facing the wrong way. I just looked and saw an arrow and assumed it meant flow direction. Did a run and had no control over pressure. Turns out it says "free flow" in arrow direction. Reversed it and tried again. Ended up giving the back of the bike a shower in hydraulic fluid.

When I disassembled the pump to reverse its rotation weeks ago I managed to put the end seals on facing the high side. During first test it blew oil past the shaft seal and make a mess. I'm kicking myself because I suspected I might have but them in the wrong way but I went ahead and tried anyways. Took it apart, reversed them, checked the keyed shaft seal and it looked ok as well so did another run.. no leaks this time.

I turned the throttle stops in to allow engine to rev to 4000 rpm... turned in valve to bog engine down and all was well... had it held at 1500 rpm. Lots of resolution in the valve to. Gave it some throttle and it broke a weld in the frame I made. Twisted it apart. Was a crappy weld but it showed me I need to beef that frame up and weld it thoroughly. Id hate to be at 7000 rpm one day and have it do that. Would be ugly.

Away for the weekend but next week I should be able to make a stronger mounting frame and do some more test runs.

I guess if I aint breaking stuff I aint learning.

Well... welded the frane up really well and had another run and bad news. Around 1200 psi and at aroind 2000 rpm it took the frame and twisted like a pretzel. I think im gonna have to build and engine cradle out of square steel tube to hold the motor out of the bike and do it that way. There just isnt enough room for a beefier pump mount between the swingarm. I feel a little deflated..its turning into a far bigger job than i anticipated.

Quote from: rd400canuck on October 11, 2021, 11:25:49 AM

Am I crazy?

You said it back in post 1.

Hang in there man.

Quote from: rd400canuck on January 11, 2022, 05:09:10 PM
Well... welded the frane up really well and had another run and bad news. Around 1200 psi and at aroind 2000 rpm it took the frame and twisted like a pretzel. I think im gonna have to build and engine cradle out of square steel tube to hold the motor out of the bike and do it that way. There just isnt enough room for a beefier pump mount between the swingarm. I feel a little deflated..its turning into a far bigger job than i anticipated.

LOL good one!  Thank you for reminding me.

I think I figured out how to keep it in the swingarm....   its the torque arm that is under all the load and its causing the mount to twist under load. I'm going to remake the mount as it is... then create a torque arm that will bolt on the back side of the 2 mounting holes for the pump. That will there will be no twisting force on the mount and it wont twist.

just a little update for you guys... I was looking at the frame I built that hold the pump in place and i began to see that not only was it twisted from the torque of the pump... but it was pulled forward. makes sense now that I think about it... the chain is literally trying to pull it inwards. The shaft on the chain side was bent backwards at the assy got pulled in. It was not a thick shaft, i need one that would sit in a bushing and that bushing need to fit in the axle hole so I was limited.

So now I think Id better build a frame that the pump can mount to solidly and have it coupled to the counter shaft with one of those flex couplers that has the rubber spider between the two. I just need to find one that has a 6 spline... all the ones at my local places are all made for keyed shaft.

Little update.  Working on new pump coupler set up and probably starting the frame that will hold the pump and load cell. Built something to funnel the exhaust outside. Works extremely good.

Heres the final setup minus the frame. Im uncertain this wont vibrate like hell.. too many places in it for movement. I gave the engine side of it a dry run on the bike and it seemed to have some issues with wobble.. and at 2700rpm it prolly be dangerous. I think i should have a short as possible solid setup welded to a sproket minus the joint. Testing will show if this will be safe or not.

run a much longer chain, set it out back behind the bike and mount it solid, and support it w an extension on the other side of that sprocket as well. that's a dangerous disaster waiting to happen. needs to be double shear supported.   :twocents:

The oldham coupler isn't intended to run in shear. Do as Mark says, but you will still need at coupler or eventually you'll damage the bearings in the pump. The coupler should be pump side. The sprocket supported with two pillow blocks.

I'm not sure I'm grasping everything you're trying to do there but being a hydraulic repair tech for 40 years I see a few issues.

You should have an adjustable relief valve in the system. That flow control valve can be set but as the pump rpm goes up the system pressure is going to increase. It is going to be tricky to adjust that properly as the engine speed and power increases. It could easily jump up over 3000psi when it is running at peak power if you are not careful.

Any torsion bar needs to be right at the flange where the pump mounts, not at the back of the pump. If it's at the back it will put a side load on the pump shaft and try to bend it.

If you make a separate frame to hold the pump it has to be very securely bolted to the frame of the bike or the whole pump frame assembly will try to rotate as soon as the pump has a load on it.

or pull the wheel out and fixture it in the swingarm as well.

hes right, you need a relief valve. Im no fan of adjustables (we actually sell relief valves at work), and for safety sake, you want to run it a few hundred psi under what the max is as a failsafe, as a bare minimum, but a bleed off at a set pressure 'back to tank' will do what you need as well. ie, run both if you can. .02

I have been following along with interest, and maybe I missed something, but where is all this hardware going to live on the motorcycle? Maybe I need to go back and re-read, but you are planning to ride this machine when you're all done, right? It seems like you're going to need a sidecar rig for all the plumbing  :huh:

You're pretty far off.

Thank for feedback guys.... this is certainly a learning process for me.

After the initial frame I built got pulled inwards and bent I was thinking that I could just couple the pump right to the counter shaft. If I didnt have to make it so the pump was ale to rotate a little it'd be far easier but i do so I can measure torgue with the load cell. The pump isnt going to actually rotate obviously... but it cant be hard mounted and solid.

After I welded up yesterdays idea I knew right away it was a very bad idea. Last night I decided to go back to chain and build a beefy frame to hold everything solidly in play while allowing the pump to be able to press down a moment arm. This was actually my orig idea but took another route after thinking too hard lol.

So im going to do what SC is saying... I will have a shaft with a sprocket on it that will be held on each end with a cushion bearing to keep sheer forces at bay. One side will have the shaft extended out a couple inches and I plan to use a coupler there to couple to the pump shaft. The rear of the pump will be supported by a centered shaft I have welded up to a bracket and bolted on the back that will sit in another cushion bearing. The moment arm will be bolt to the front of the pump and will press on a load cell. Everything is going to be bolted onto a beefy frame I will weld up.

Ive seen a number of these hydraulic pump dyno setups on the net for small engines and they all work perfectly with the needle valve. They just turn it in by hand until the engine bogs down from redline and the torque is graphed as a curve that way.

I will use an Arduino that will have the rpm feed into it from the ignition... i have written code that will control a geared motor attached to the needle valve that will turn the valve until it reaches the requested rpm. Ive got a 3 : 1 pulley set and a toothed belt. So for every turn of the geared motor the needle valve will turn by 1/3. Ive already written most of the code that will control the motor and tested it a little. It has a ton of torque and I can code it to turn full speed which is 60 rpm or I can increment it small enough that it is almost imperceptible. I'm fairly certain that will give me the control the Arduino will need to control the engine rpm.

Im heading to get some parts... keep you guys posted.

This is my idea. 3 cushion bearing assys, 5 inch shaft to hold sprocket and extend out one bearing into a coupler that the pump shaft will fit into the other side. 

Or... should I connect one side of the spider joint coupler I have to the 5inch shaft and put the other half right on the pump shaft?

Let me know what you guys think.

this looks good to me.

Yep, that's right.

ok thanks for feedback.... got everything i need and will get to work this week. pics to come.

Ok.. herres setup #3. I should have done this in the first place but was too busy getting fancy. Should have the frame done this week or weekend.

edit..   worked a little on the frame... ignore the welds please lol... having a little trouble getting used to fluxcore.

there is the cogged pulley on the needle valve that will be controlled by the geared motor... the 3rd pic is the setup that will control everything. the black one is a stepper motor that will control the throttle percentage when i am steady state and acel enrichment turning.

Hey all,

just letting you guys know I havent given up on the dyno and efi project... life has been getting in the way lately. Should be able to get back to it in a couple weeks.

Also, picked up my new ride last week.

ooooo

I really had no choice but to sell my beloved F150 and get this electric car. I was burning $800 per month in fuel and that alone more than covers the loan payment on this car. charge it at night for .08 cents a kw and it costs me around $10 per 500km (310  miles) range. No il changes and really no maintenance, ive touched the brake peddle twice in a week so im assuming brakes are gonna last forever.

don't forget the brakes allow for regeneration a bit. so mileage will go up some when you actually use the brakes.

how's towing, if any, capabilites with those? I'm serious, i have no idea.  :gentleman:

Quote from: Striker1423 on March 18, 2022, 08:07:25 AM
don't forget the brakes allow for regeneration a bit. so mileage will go up some when you actually use the brakes.

Actually, regeneration occurs without touching the brake pedal.

thats the reason i never touch the brake pedal... you modulate regen with the throttle peddle. It's one peddle driving and you learn when to lay off and can regen it brake to a stop.

It has a hitch and can tow 3500lbs.

I think the car has equivalent of 450hp and thats as soon as you press the peddle. instant torque and it pulls so hard I have to put it in "chill" mode so it behaves more calmly.

good to know in the towing... that matters to me.  The rest i know is good, congrats.  :toot:

$0.08/kWh?! Wow they're practically giving it away in Canada. Here it's over $0.40/kWh

Quote from: SoCal250 on March 19, 2022, 01:09:39 PM
$0.08/kWh?! Wow they're practically giving it away in Canada. Here it's over $0.40/kWh

holy crap! I dont think mine goes that high even during peak rates. For me it's .08 or .09 cents from 7pm to 7am.

Hello again, I'm back.

Had to disappear for a year and a half... got leukemia 20 years ago, did chemo and bone marrow transplant but I still have issues, nothing that will kill me off but still a massive nuisance.

Still have all the parts for EFI project but I dont really have the strength and drive to tackle it now. I sold all my bikes and sled as well. Was about to sell the RD but decided not to. Was worried once my health returns Id regret it because Id never find another stock RD, and here we are.. Im feeling better and thank god I didnt let it go.

Im not going down the EFI road now.. just dont have the energy and as much as Id love to dig my teeth into that project and I dont fancy being in the garage touching gas and breathing it.

Last mod I made to bike was replacing the HPI ignition with a Vape unit. The ignition curve on the HPI was amazing, the bike really pulled so much harder but I didnt like the tiny weightless flywheel and lack of flywheel effect. I had to keep the idle up as well so it could tick over and it smoked worse at red lights. The vape flywheel makes the bike feel so much better and smoother to me, I really love it. Also the wattage the Vape puts out keeps everthing bright and flicker free.

Now my big plan is getting the heads doweled to cylinders and the head's squish corrected to 1mm (I think is the safe norm) and chambers milled to keep a sane compression ratio. Once that's done I will set out to dial in an ignition curve. Im going to keep everything else stock.. aside from sprockets.. I really wished I had taller gearing to settle the revs a little especially when it had ign curve cause it felt like it had more than enough torque to do it without struggling. Dropping them by 750rpm in 6th would be nice.

The plan is to go through the motor this winter and make sure all is well and fix a small oil leak that was there since I rebuilt everything 3 years ago. I think its coming from the shifter rod or counter sprocket shaft. Im still on fence about completing my home made dyno to tune in ign curve... I may just find a dyno shop in town and pay to use it. Depends on what energy I have. Tbh when I had the bike attached to it, running on one cylinder, during testing it scared the crap out of me. Or, I may just plug in a "safe" ign curve like the one the HPI has and call it a day.

So, I'll start with quesiton #1... Who has had squish and chambers volumes done and was it worth it? Noticeable benefits? And if so.. any suggestions where I can send cyls and heads to get them doweled and squish corrected?

Thanks again everyone.
John 

thats a lot to unpack, sorry you had to deal w all this.

as far as heads.. man, good q. maybe ed toomey or wicked motorsports? it def helps.

Quote from: m in sc on August 03, 2023, 11:03:42 AMthats a lot to unpack, sorry you had to deal w all this.

as far as heads.. man, good q. maybe ed toomey or wicked motorsports? it def helps.

ya i wrote a book there lol

Thanks for those suggestions. I will contact them and get that ball rolling.

Damn, Sorry to hear about your health. But, I like your attitude! Sounds like you've rebounded pretty well.
I, too have returned to this forum after a long hiatus. I had an R5, now back with an RD. These bikes never leave the memory.

Small oil leak - get an LED UV flashlight (Amazon or ebay) and look for it in a darkened garage. I found a leak on mine from a blanking plug that would not stay seated. Finally cleaned all and coated the OD of the seal with Hondabond - no leaks since.

EFI, no EFI. Who cares? Glad you're back!

Glad you are better and back.

Thanks for the welcome back, lads. Having someone else's bone marrow/immune system can be a bit of a chore at times. Not complaining tho.. at least Im here to talk about it.

I emailed a few places. Only one has machining ability, he said theres no need to center and dowel the head, they just machine the bowel deep and wide enough to avoid piston hitting it. Also said he sees these old head domes sometimes machined off center to begin with.

I need to find what my squish is before deciding if its even worth it. I think I like the idea of having it done more than the HP Id gain. I only bomb around town and it has plenty power for that.

I'll get the VAPE programmer eventually and put in a safe curve. I really liked the extra pull when I had the HPI on it. Gear it to drop rpms a bit and will call it a day. I think 500 rpm less.. just to settle the bike a little.