Im so stoked i was able to finally get my hands on one of these. this came out of japan, recently, out of a collection.
Admittedly, I do not have a LOT of knowledge on these, but I'll figure it out.
for now, it need the tank cleaned and lined, it has a pretty wicked seam leak at the LH lower corner, not surprising. Def needs some other things immediately:
fork seals
carbs cleaned
petcock rebuild or replaced.
coil remounted
brakes serviced (they are a bit sticky)
and probably a chain, tires aren't old surprisingly
I did get it fire up a bit, or at least fire off here and there but the carbs are, for sure, clogged up. so thats 1st order of business. I know it last ran in feb or march of this year.
My friends Adam and Dan were very gracious to pick this up for me, last minute, on their way from barber. (it did not come from there though).
This was one i always wanted after i rode one a few years ago, and im super pumped about it.
(https://www.2strokeworld.net/wp-content/uploads/tzr250/tzr250-day1_10.jpg)
(https://www.2strokeworld.net/wp-content/uploads/tzr250/tzr250-day1_09.jpg)
( you can see MSR's 73 350 in the background here)
(https://www.2strokeworld.net/wp-content/uploads/tzr250/tzr250-day1_07-1-scaled.jpg)
(https://www.2strokeworld.net/wp-content/uploads/tzr250/tzr250-day1_05-1-scaled.jpg)
(https://www.2strokeworld.net/wp-content/uploads/tzr250/tzr250-day1_06-scaled.jpg)
and the most supportive wife in the world, was also pretty excited about it.
(https://www.2strokeworld.net/wp-content/uploads/tzr250/tzr250-day1_04-1-scaled.jpg)
:cheerleader: :whoop:
This thing is really badass in person. Can't wait to see it on the road.
Nice score! I can't wait to hear it.
Awesome!
Very nice Mark! That is one of the ideal Deal's Gap bikes. Look forward to seeing it at the Gap 2023!
Same fantastic case induction motor as my TDR.
Looks like it still has the carb heater piping in place? You'll be wanting to ditch that asap.
The aluminum perimeter frame was a huge step up from the RZ as well.
Should be able to see 50hp with a bit of work.
Congrats Mark! :clap: You're going to be happy with that one
180 speedo is JDM, so I would guess the whole bike is.
If it has a 17 inch rear wheel, it is the last of the first gen TZR's
If it has 2XT on the upper case, you have the big reed cage, bottom end and it should have the extra exhaust ports in the cylinders.
It's a rare one.... :thumbs:
Sweet! and a donut :clap:
Quote from: busa1300 on October 10, 2022, 08:04:19 PM
If it has 2XT on the upper case, you have the big reed cage, bottom end and it should have the extra exhaust ports in the cylinders.
It's a rare one.... :thumbs:
2xt would be like winning the lottery.
:righteous: :righteous:
upper case is 3xc
3xc is R1-Z.
Another bike that used the 1KT motor.
Makes sense, as I don't think the early TZR had the carb heaters like the later TDR and R1-Z.
You lucky DOG! Congrats :bacon:
Gotta love that jet BLOCK
JT
yup. no carb heaters. got carbs off last night. they are cleaning now, def need new intakes soon though..
Man. Way cool.
Quote from: pdxjim on October 11, 2022, 12:15:03 AM
3xc is R1-Z.
Another bike that used the 1KT motor.
Makes sense, as I don't think the early TZR had the carb heaters like the later TDR and R1-Z.
Must have swapped the the 2XT for a 3XC somewhere in its life.
this thing looks completely mechanically unmolested, i would he highly surprised and doubtful if the motor was ever swapped, there's zero wrench or witness marks on any of the motor bolts. The only history i know on it is it came from japan from a collector over there. is it possible? i guess... but id find it unlikely. but im sort of out of my knowledge element here on specifics.
Can't beat a Marlboro paint job.
Here are the various paint options and serial range through the years for each version of each model
http://pure2strokespirit.net/redandblueftp/model_history/tzr250/tzr250_model_history.html
If you need parts
http://pure2strokespirit.net/redandblueftp/download/1KT/1KT_2AW_parts_catalogue_jp.pdf
If you have a 3XC engine, the intakes and carbs may be different than the 1KT / 2AW
i APPRECIATE THAT. webike has a bunch of stuff for it as well. the intakes are the same as the tdr from what ive seen.
so looking very closely at it, it does appear that the rear motor mount bolt, indeed, has been taken out at some point. :huh:
so.. what motor is this then?
this link tosses in the 3xc with the tzr, but as a 91? do i have a later R1Z motor in there? Is it some weird japanese market stamping? :huh: I seriously would like opinions on this as i'm a bit out of my element as to identifying this. oh, and no carb heaters. like said, everything looks dead stock so im totally confused.
http://pure2strokespirit.net/redandblueftp/download/3XC/index.php
pics for id:
(https://www.2strokeworld.net/wp-content/uploads/tzr250/motor/tzr-motor14.jpg)
(https://www.2strokeworld.net/wp-content/uploads/tzr250/motor/tzr-motor16.jpg)
(https://www.2strokeworld.net/wp-content/uploads/tzr250/motor/tzr-motor13.jpg)
3XC is absolutely an R1Z.
No VIN on cases is standard for JDM bikes.
Join the TZR FB group and start asking questions.
will do.
in some reading, appears this (r1z) is a 40 hp motor.. at 8500 where as the 1kt is .. 50? at 10k? not sure how much truth there is to that, im sure some, but , internet.. anyway, thats fine, and the guy i got it from def didn't know the discrepancy, so i'm not mad at all. just trying to figure out what's in my hands right now . as far as collectability and resale, really don't care as much as most would. In some respects... if its a bastard bike, that give me freedom to be more open to mods.
the deal isnt 100% locked in stone. in a lot of respects, having one i can mod guilt-free is a bonus to me. that being said, how much more tame -is- the r1z motor? and aside from (porting i would guess?) what are the differences?
I believe they are all the same really.
Just some subtle differences between models. Trans ratios, CDI and loom, carb heaters etc, but the cases, crank, cyls, pistons etc are all the same.
I know the differences between the 1KT and the 2XT, (2XT is noticeably different) but not sure of the 3XC (more like 1KT).
If the upper case has 3XC cast (not stamped) into it then there is a difference.
JDM bikes became restricted to 45hp around/after 1989. In 93 they were restricted to 40 hp. Most restrictions were in ignition box and carbs, pipes
So I would first look into the carb jetting and compare it to the parts fitch to see what they were off of.
For the TZR 3XV models, the standard bike and RS version all had 28mm carbs, the 91-92 SP had 36mm, the 93-94 SP had 32mm and the SPR had an oblong 32mm.
LOTS of variations from the factory, and not sure if there were different sizes for the first gen TZR. The bike was sold in Canada for a year or two, and all those were in unrestricted form I think...could be a source for upgraded parts.
Impex and megazip are direct from Japan parts warehouses where I get most my stuff.
... and yes, your bike does indeed have the carb heater head. It just has been bypassed with that loop of hose from the therm housing to the head. If you have 3XC/2YK carbs, you should see the corresponding in/out water fittings on them. Coolant flows from the therm housing into the left carb, over to the right carb, then back to the head. Useless in your climate.
Much cleaner to just remove the banjos and hose, and replace with button heads and copper crush washers.
2YK and 1KT don't have a YICS boost bottle either, just a straight crossover between the intake boots.
(https://i.ibb.co/zNrz5Nr/3-B7-D50-F3-817-F-4-A25-81-EE-402496-B3-FD7-F.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/gW7k27B/A8-FC3-A8-F-5687-4171-AB8-C-DE85-AF454785.jpg)
Jim, admittedly i hadnt dug into the cooling system yet. I see what you are saying. (i did just get it running last night) but theres none on the carbs themselves. The carbs were super gummy.
carbs are, for sure, tm28s, i did measure them. and it is jetted as a TZR, 230 main jet, 20 pilot. (from what i found).
it looks like somebody may have just swapped the lump itself.
i will definitely plug the coolant ports down the road, sooner than later.
and the mark is stamped into the upper case, not cast in (at least not anywhere i found). From the little bit ive read, when the parallel twin was replaced by the v twin for the TZRs, they then started using this motor int he r1z with the restrictions as mentioned. Like said, everything else seems unmolsted so far. so, maybe i got lucky. I'm by no means a purist but i'd hate to be down 10hp from what it could be.
Some final parallel history
Will need a web translator.
https://mr-bike.jp/mb/archives/3714
End of the line for Yamaha 2 stroke street bikes...
https://mr-bike.jp/mb/?p=3775
I had some 2XT engine pictures, but can't find them now....only found this one showing cylinder markings
2XT...
(http://www.geckomotorcycles.co.uk/magento/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/800x600/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/2/x/2xt_engine_spares_07_12_19_26_.jpg)
Looks like you're getting some answers in the FB group.
These are the pipes you want. Hand hydroformed by Martin Johnson in the UK. Super nice, humble genius. Modestly priced as well. He makes road (midrange) and race versions.
(https://i.ibb.co/KwkD54R/e-Pys3-Om-L1-Fsa-CDSTRRLHx-JNwf-Ss-QSK-Uxb8-Pp-ESQiy-Z3qi8hdy-JUWVNJ1-DB6-Ue-GMI5vy-AFlce-Dp-JIt-CEf.jpg)
im not quite at the point of changing pipes yet. i was eyeballing the stainless ones on webike :devil: though.
more than likely down the road i'll swap them. how mush were those a set jim? :thumbs:
I believe they are still under £500 GBP. Can't remember that if that includes the Tyga cans or not. Plus shipping from the UK.
Unlike most of the Japanese pipes, Martin's are performance proven with many years of development and race wins.
Plus, he is a super nice guy and a great resource for tuning tips, etc. Very generous and open with his knowledge.
(https://www.2strokeworld.net/wp-content/uploads/MISC-BS/parts-wait.jpg)
Quote from: m in sc on October 14, 2022, 11:59:28 AM
(https://www.2strokeworld.net/wp-content/uploads/MISC-BS/parts-wait.jpg)
So that's what my problem is!
Yamaha factory kitted TT formula 3 bike....
Beautiful little thing
^ that is nice.
so, while waiting for stuff, there's a few things I needed to address. most importantly is the fuel tank. letting them sit with any fuel in them, well, things go awry. down side of a low mileage bike.
luckily its savable but its going to need to be lined. there are leaks at both low point seams and there's one pinhole on the LH side right in the middle of the side of the tank. :'(
so, i used a few gallons of evaoprust after getting most of the loose flakes out. It wasn't covered in rust, but where it was rusty, it was pretty bad. so, i flushed it out this morning with clean water after de-rusting, and its currently sitting in my garage with a fan blowing air down the neck with my improvised duct to push it through the filler neck.
Caswell should fix this up right as rain. then i can see about getting the white paint that lifted touched up.
(https://www.2strokeworld.net/wp-content/uploads/tzr250/fuel-tank/tzr-tank-cleaning_1.jpg)
(https://www.2strokeworld.net/wp-content/uploads/tzr250/fuel-tank/tzr-tank-cleaning_2.jpg)
(https://www.2strokeworld.net/wp-content/uploads/tzr250/fuel-tank/tzr-tank-cleaning_3.jpg)
http://ottodem.com/ (http://ottodem.com/)
This guy has some CAD files for TZ stuff available through grabcad for free.
Not sure if this helps anyone.
I've had good results with Evaporust (RZ tanks), but have never tried lining one. Brazing pinholes shut didn't go too well either. Good luck on your efforts - beautiful bike.
Hey Mark,
Caswell works great. Just be sure to protect the paint up around the filler cap area. You don't want to get sealer on the paint.
yup. already have it done. ive probably done 15-20 tanks with it.
Love the TZR. I had a 2MA racebike that I used for a season or two. Great fun and lovely to work on.
Also had an R1-Z 3XC. They have the closest ratio box of all of them. Very close to the F3 kit gearbox.
All great fun to work on. I currently have a JDM TDR250 which is low miles and also a giggle.
Yet another great Yamaha stroker. Enjoy.
(https://i.imgur.com/ncJAyz7.jpg)
nice!
ive always liked r1z's have only ever seen 2 or 3 in real life.
Ive been fairly steady on the TZR, got the intakes, petcock rebuild kit, and fork seals Friday. (actually arrived early). Less than a week from Yambits in the UK, and by fedex. I almost can't believe it.
so first off. look at this fucking jackassery on the intakes. I'll let the pic speak for itself. :whatever:
(https://www.2strokeworld.net/wp-content/uploads/tzr250/motor/Resized_20221022_101008.jpeg)
much better. also, rebuilt petcock in back of pic. all parts were tanked and the face plate was worked over a whetstone to help sealing.
(https://www.2strokeworld.net/wp-content/uploads/tzr250/motor/Resized_20221022_101031.jpeg)
so, to jims point, the heater line was blocked off. intakes installed , and reeds and crank checked (visually). looks pretty good.
(https://www.2strokeworld.net/wp-content/uploads/tzr250/motor/Resized_20221022_122736.jpeg)
so, forks.
somebody apparently had cleaned the outer ones with sandpaper. they looked a bit rough up close. took the fender and wheel off...
one to left in pic (right fork leg) is after i cleaned if off some.
(https://www.2strokeworld.net/wp-content/uploads/tzr250/suspension-all/Resized_20221023_182436.jpeg)
OF COURSE one of the fork leg bolts were stripped. luckily got it out.
(https://www.2strokeworld.net/wp-content/uploads/tzr250/suspension-all/20221023_183257-scaled.jpg)
looks like somebody replaced just the left seal in the past. :huh:
all fresh now.
(https://www.2strokeworld.net/wp-content/uploads/tzr250/suspension-all/20221023_200120-scaled.jpg)
fork oil set to 90mm from top w springs out, and compressed.
so, in a good place, think all the mechanical stuff is done. just need to get battery in and bodywork back on, and should be sorted.
IN regards to what it actually is... this is interesting.
the frame number doesnt match the bodywork either. the frame number is a 1kt-55*** which means its an 86-88 NON marlboro scheme bike. Again, not really concerned, because the less from original it is, the more freedom i feel i have with it. Just gets weirder and weirder, but rest assured, it was not paid for as a parts numbers matching bike, so no worries there.
more to come. :afro:
Some 2XT parts at auction right now.
Sadly the engine must have been bought for a customer, and now they are parting everything else
They do have the better wider 17 front/rear wheels still
https://auctions.yahoo.co.jp/seller/spongebob0817?p=tzr&ei=UTF-8&auccat=0&sid=spongebob0817&b=1&n=60&haq=2
thats very cool. i did spy a 2xt cdi box.... :whistle:
I think it's a combined CDI and YPVS box on the 2XT, 3XC and 3CK, unlike the 1KT / 2MA.
There was a excellent Japanese site that had curves for all the CDIs, but it's down now and not on the archives, dam it. If I remember, the 3CK curve was the most aggressive, and the 3XC-00 the least. Later 3MA CDIs have a throttle position sensor.
The YPM racers in the UK made decent power on the stock 1KT CDI. Mine made 56bhp on a dynojet, right at the class limit although that was when we had to use stock pipes. Standard, they are around 40bhp. Enjoy.
mine are separate, for sure. ypvs controller on lh side, cdi on right. truth is, i'll eventually get a zeeltronic combo unit down the road, was the best thing i did for my rz.
Yep. I have an Ignitech on my 31K. It's made such a difference.
it fought me a bit, the reg/rectifier was faulty. however, i got that sorted for now and was finally able to take it on a test ride.
ran well. never rode a dead stock one before, its good.
in the process of getting the body work back on, that was late last night. luckily, zero leaks, fires or explosions. and.. everything seems to be working as it should, despite previous (like 2 owners ago) efforts to hack some shit together for a quick sale. :whistle:
(https://www.2strokeworld.net/wp-content/uploads/tzr250/Resized_20221025_222352.jpeg)
Very impressive Mark that you've got it on the road that quickly! :vroom: :cheers: :clap:
thanks Evans. it wasnt -that- bad over all. I'm prob 500 or so in parts, and just a bunch of time. over all, it was pretty decent, really much more so, compared to what i normally deal with. trying to figure out what i wasnt familiar with.. was the trick over all. Mostly peoples old 'repairs'. we'll see how it holds up
Congrats on getting it back on the road! Those intakes look like someone was just asking for a seizure
Quote from: SoCal250 on October 26, 2022, 02:12:21 PM
Congrats on getting it back on the road! Those intakes look like someone was just asking for a seizure
i was a little surprised they weren't orange or blue siliconed TBH. and they came from japan that way when it was shipped over. :busey:
Sweet :righteous: :righteous:
Brilliant job!
They ride great eh? A beautiful chassis too.
it is fantastic to ride. thats why i wanted one, rode one a few years ago at the 2 stroke meet and that was it, ruined the rz for me. lol.
Got it out last night to the local bike night. did very well, zero issues.
Figured i would probably have the oddest/rarest bike there, but, of course , rick shows up on his unbelievable saxon/laverda about 10 minutes after I did. lol (1 of 5 ever built). we had a good chuckle about it.
(https://www.2strokeworld.net/wp-content/uploads/tzr250/312812829_1858354194539426_8712356457685308381_n.jpg)
That's a nice venue for a bike night! :olaf: :clap: Hey- I think I see Matt (msr) in the pic across the street from where the bikes are parked on the black jacket/ jeans! :wave:
Quote from: Evans Ward on October 28, 2022, 11:29:44 AM
That's a nice venue for a bike night! :olaf: :clap: Hey- I think I see Matt (msr) in the pic across the street from where the bikes are parked on the black jacket/ jeans! :wave:
yes it is Matt. We have 2 of those locations near us, that one is on the river (grapevine faces it). Both host the bike nights.. thats his new moto-guzzi to the right of the vespa.
Quote from: Evans Ward on October 28, 2022, 11:29:44 AM
That's a nice venue for a bike night! :olaf: :clap: Hey- I think I see Matt (msr) in the pic across the street from where the bikes are parked on the black jacket/ jeans! :wave:
Yep, that's me. Hi, Evans!
Looks like a cool bike night gathering spot. Congrats on the successful night out with the new JDM toy. :cheers:
1st ride to work today.
:whoop:
did very well. not sure if i was starving it for fuel but had it over 8k for over a mile, easy, and started feeling liek it may have been running low. everything is working as it should , petock rebuilt, lines new, etc. might just be me being paranoid. or it hit reserve. :umm: either way, a success. :olaf:
(https://www.2strokeworld.net/wp-content/uploads/314185328_6137240249637650_8427203999718726327_n.jpg)
During your carb cleaning, did you clean the little filters at the fuel inlet fittings? The get gunked up pretty easy (especially if the tank was rusty), are easy to miss, not shown on parts diagram, and most don't even know they're there.
(https://i.ibb.co/kcmgbgQ/TDRcarb1.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/HnhnVtV/TDRcarb2.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/55V2dm7/TDRcarb3.jpg)
i did not see them in there. I knew about them though... maybe i need to pull the tank take a look again just to satisfy my 'shit, did i check that?' doubts.
damn you jim. :dawg:
fyi, pulled the tank after work and looked in there, nope, they were not in there. ran great on way home as well. :cheerleader:
nice!
In case you need pistons in the future...
https://en.impex-jp.com/catalogs/moto/yamaha/tzr250/2ma-1987-white-ww-0036-england-5889/crankshaft-piston-232962.html
thanks. you know i do now.. found low compression yesterday, 70 psi on one cyl, 100 on the right. top end time. DOH! :shocked:
Damn
Sorry to read that Mark :eek: but I know you'll do it right and will know this engine up close and personal.
yup.
a bit more:
I should have checked compression when i got it, i knew better. However, it seemed to run well. My only experience with tzrs as a baseline was non stock ones, so i wasnt 100% sure what to expect.
i def did have some needle and seat issues. now that they are sorted (replaced) and the float level is set, i warmed it up in the garage and notices the RH cyl wasn't idling as strong as the left. temp gun on the headpipes showed 150-200 degrees less on the RH cyl vs left . i -knew- the carbs were clean yesterday as i had just rechecked them replacing the needle and seats. floats (round style) were set to 21mm.
midrange seemed ok. so when it was fully warm, temp gauge at 1/3~1/2, i decided to rev it out (10k) to see what it was doing. yup. RH cyl would then cut out at high rpm up high, or at least go in and out even under no load or with the speedometer out of the equation. a bit later i checked compression there it was.
well, at least now i have a small winter project.
:boom: :gentleman:
Would hate to go through all that work with new top end, and then have a old crank seal let some air in....
oh... i hear you loud and clear.
Quote from: m in sc on October 10, 2022, 12:01:45 PM
Im so stoked i was able to finally get my hands on one of these. this came out of japan, recently, out of a collection.
Admittedly, I do not have a LOT of knowledge on these, but I'll figure it out.
for now, it need the tank cleaned and lined, it has a pretty wicked seam leak at the LH lower corner, not surprising. Def needs some other things immediately:
fork seals
carbs cleaned
petcock rebuild or replaced.
coil remounted
brakes serviced (they are a bit sticky)
and probably a chain, tires aren't old surprisingly
I did get it fire up a bit, or at least fire off here and there but the carbs are, for sure, clogged up. so thats 1st order of business. I know it last ran in feb or march of this year.
My friends Adam and Dan were very gracious to pick this up for me, last minute, on their way from barber. (it did not come from there though).
This was one i always wanted after i rode one a few years ago, and im super pumped about it.
(https://www.2strokeworld.net/wp-content/uploads/tzr250/tzr250-day1_10.jpg)
(https://www.2strokeworld.net/wp-content/uploads/tzr250/tzr250-day1_09.jpg)
( you can see MSR's 73 350 in the background here)
(https://www.2strokeworld.net/wp-content/uploads/tzr250/tzr250-day1_07-1-scaled.jpg)
(https://www.2strokeworld.net/wp-content/uploads/tzr250/tzr250-day1_05-1-scaled.jpg)
(https://www.2strokeworld.net/wp-content/uploads/tzr250/tzr250-day1_06-scaled.jpg)
and the most supportive wife in the world, was also pretty excited about it.
(https://www.2strokeworld.net/wp-content/uploads/tzr250/tzr250-day1_04-1-scaled.jpg)
:cheerleader: :whoop:
Nice find! :thumbs: I've been sitting on a 1986 TZR250R (1KT) for 20 years now and not sure what to do with it at this point. It somehow made it's way from Japan to SF Bay area and got titled, changed owners (who tore it down for new top end) for a few years, relocated to San Diego where I bought it in I think 2003. Love the look and sound of these bikes!
Yamaha Loves to Over complicate a retro race bike RZ500 comparison. THe stupid jet block and all the hoses...
Fun bikes, love the look Glad you are sorting her out. :thumbs:
Yamaha LC250 was the best race bile for the street.
FYI you can make a TZ250 into a street bike.. Smaller carb to tame and other small adjustments.
Great collectors bike!!
JT
actually, i didn't find it (the whole bike) complicated at all. .. on this, just a t fitting for the fuel lines, single feed to petock. and this thing would destroy a regular LC250 stock to stock, built even more so. I never had any desire to own a square or v 4 for the over complex nature of it though.
anyway
cyls are off, getting a rebore to ,25 over, they looke dok but a refresh is due. rebuilding stock. will deal with the ignition and pipe upgrades later. head getting cut to bring it to a .8-.85mm squish.
cyl are at shop now, head at another shop, should have all those parts back next week. In the meantime, just cleaning stuff up from it sitting prior.
power valves needed a cleaning, also polished them a bit.
ring gap was almost 2x limit. :eek: however, cyls and pistons looked really mechanically good.
(https://www.2strokeworld.net/wp-content/uploads/tzr250/motor/tzr250-cyls-pv-pre_1.jpg)
(https://www.2strokeworld.net/wp-content/uploads/tzr250/motor/tzr250-cyls-pv-pre_3.jpg)
(https://www.2strokeworld.net/wp-content/uploads/tzr250/motor/pvs-head-tzr-pre_2.jpg)
(https://www.2strokeworld.net/wp-content/uploads/tzr250/motor/tzr250-cyls-pv-pre_7.jpg)
(https://www.2strokeworld.net/wp-content/uploads/tzr250/motor/tzr250-cyls-pv-pre_6.jpg)
(https://www.2strokeworld.net/wp-content/uploads/tzr250/motor/pvs-head-tzr-pre_6-rotated.jpg)
all new pv seals and o rings as well, + new silicone hoses. ordered soem ;soft hose' specific clamps for them as well.
maybe running by the new year. :metal:
:righteous: :righteous:
Quote from: m in sc on December 22, 2022, 02:18:22 PM
cyls are off, getting a rebore to ,25 over, they looke dok but a refresh is due. rebuilding stock. will deal with the ignition and pipe upgrades later. head getting cut to bring it to a .8-.85mm squish.
cyl are at shop now, head at another shop, should have all those parts back next week. In the meantime, just cleaning stuff up from it sitting prior.
power valves needed a cleaning, also polished them a bit.
ring gap was almost 2x limit. :eek: however, cyls and pistons looked really mechanically good.
all new pv seals and o rings as well, + new silicone hoses. ordered soem ;soft hose' specific clamps for them as well.
maybe running by the new year. :metal:
Sweet! :cheers: :whoop:
Such a nice bike. Good luck with the rebuild. Where do you get OEM parts for a TZR?
the parts for rebuild aren't hard to find for the most part, or particularly expensive, especially since the motor (1kt) is shared with the TDR and R1Z. they made these longer that the (actual) aircooled rd350s.
yambits in the UK, and webike has about 99% of everything i need. the intakes are genuine, the pistons are good ones, but not oem..? also just ordered a master cyl rebuil kt for it today, for preventative. need to keep the stock master as the lid info is all in japanese.
So, got all the stuff, had the cyls bored to .25 over and the head cut to get ~.8mm squish. everything went great.
stock bore, everything looked ok but ring gap was about 2x where it should have been.
(https://www.2strokeworld.net/wp-content/uploads/tzr250/motor/20221216_202952.jpg)
pistons from yambits came in, my guy measured them said they were absolutely identicle to the 4th decimal place, and it was set to .002" clearance. I deburred the sharp edges and had at it.
(https://www.2strokeworld.net/wp-content/uploads/tzr250/motor/assembled/tzr-assembly-topend_02.jpg)
(https://www.2strokeworld.net/wp-content/uploads/tzr250/motor/assembled/tzr-assembly-topend_05.jpg)
(https://www.2strokeworld.net/wp-content/uploads/tzr250/motor/assembled/tzr-assembly-topend_12.jpg)
(https://www.2strokeworld.net/wp-content/uploads/tzr250/motor/assembled/tzr-assembly-topend_13.jpg)
powervalve clearance over .015" so good to go
(https://www.2strokeworld.net/wp-content/uploads/tzr250/motor/assembled/tzr-assembly-topend_15.jpg)
(https://www.2strokeworld.net/wp-content/uploads/tzr250/motor/assembled/tzr-motor-topend-fresh_03-rotated-e1672932982262.jpg)
(https://www.2strokeworld.net/wp-content/uploads/tzr250/motor/assembled/tzr-motor-topend-fresh_08-rotated-e1672932946724.jpg)
fired up, heat cycled a few times, all good.
left and right cyls: perfect
(https://www.2strokeworld.net/wp-content/uploads/tzr250/motor/assembled/tzr-motor-topend-fresh_05-rotated.jpg)
(https://www.2strokeworld.net/wp-content/uploads/tzr250/motor/assembled/tzr-motor-topend-fresh_04-rotated.jpg)
then on the testride the ignition promptly took a shit. :whistle: :taz: :dawg:
parts on order. :olaf:
I hate getting excited about something, only to have the rug snatched out from under you feet :eek: :eek: Sounds like my luck. Stock ignition parts going back on it, or upgrade ?
it happens.. but right?
programmable zeel box shipped from john @ economy today and a dyna coil is on its way from summit racing ( i had a credit there :whistle: )
also, as a side note, im glad i pulled the tank back off, the quick connects i got for the fuel likes weren't flowing worth a shit. enough to run but the o-rings started failing. that 3/8" fuel like will be the death of me i swear. :boom:
So, there wa some weirdness with the 1st attempt at getting this to work, i -may? have wired it in wrong the 1st time even though my notes say otherwise. anyway, did it again and got it sorted after soem help from John @ economy, also bought a new fancy self powered programmer.(my old one is like 16 years old) and its just easier to use.
anyway, general thought is static timing is 34 degrees on the tzr, same as an RZ350. well, it snot, at least on mine. Not sure why, but is what it is.
here's a video of me setting the static angle using a dial back timing light, a dial gauge, and a flat curve. thi smight be helpful to anyone using a vape or zeel on an rz or anything else. hope it makes sense.
:toot:
Oh very cool. I always found programming to be more voodoo, but it's nice to see it actually work.
With any non standard ignition system, the hardest part is accurately setting the base timing.
To find TDC I use a positive stop and degree wheel and make sure that it's zeroed half way between the stop BTDC and the stop rotating backwards towards the same angle ATDC. Inevitably what I though was TDC is actually 5- 10 degrees out.
Using a DTI to set timing Xmm before, I don't need to do that but when the programmable system is set in degrees, I have to get the base timing absolutely correct because if not, the whole curve will be out by the error in base timing.
With limited access to fit a degree wheel, it all gets to be more complicated as you show in that video but where you can use a degree wheel and positive piston stop, and then confirm base timing with a timing light works for me.
i agree, what you didn't see was what i did before, which is .5mm before, .5mm after and splitting the difference and marking it to find the top of tdc dwell. :cheers:
so, it turns out that since it has an r1z bottom end, the timing for them is.. ta da... 5 degrees different than the tzr, due to the rotor. (same as a tdr350). this is why i found it off from the tzr spec and landed at 40 degrees static vs the 34 it supposed to be for a tzr rotor (i had no idea they were different). so, its within 1 degree, the stock variance is 1.5 degrees allowed (believe it or not).
had it reversed, had to go 5 the other way, so about 30 static. at 15 degees the mark i made @15 lines up AND the timing mark on the rotor now lines up by chance.
That's a lot of initial timing. Do you think that's because at lower revs the exhaust and ports are way off optimal timing so it needs a lot more advance to get the party started?
Makes me wonder what the timing curve looks like.
GT750 had timing at 22 degrees +/- 2 degrees and it doesn't make a lot of difference which end of that range it's set at for a stock motor. But that's the opposite end of the spectrum in terms of specific output and makes about the same power (stock) as an RZ350 or a good late model 250cc twin.
its not initial, its static offset, usually referred to as static timing. that's how it can advance. remember, the zeel box is just a signal delay box (for the most part), so it needs a reference angle as to when the trigger passes the pickup.
the timing is about
15 degrees idle
26
23
18
9
and as said above, turned out to actually be 30 degrees, i had it reversed. the way to determine is to program in a flat curve, set it all to, 20 degrees persay. then, use the dial back timing light (or scribe a mark at 20 degrees btdc). fire bike up, use timing light and with it -supposed- to run at programmed 20 degrees, adjust static timing on the programmer until it lines up at the 20 degree mark. on rzs for example, is 34 degrees.
what that does is tell the programmer where the trigger is and to compensate for its position. also, these have a 50mm stroke and a 105mm rod length, so regular timing curve for an rz or rd isn't going to work.
i programmed the curve in as above, roughly, and its fine. actually took it out today. need to look at fuel feed, it started starving for fuel at 105 mph after about 1/2 mile. :toot: (pretty sure i know what it is)
On a closed circuit obviously :whistle:
No riding up here with 6" of fresh powder making everything pretty but no use for most of us with road bikes.
Timing sounds similar to where I am starting with an Ignitech, but on that, the base timing comes from the rear end of the trigger and like the Zeel, it is normally triggered by the front face and the ignition just retards from where it sees the front edge.
I am starting with base timing of 14 degrees, going to 28 at 1200 then dropping to 22 at 6500 and a8 at 8500 dropping off before the rev limiter kicks in. I have a 65mm stroke and long rods, but timing BTDC should be similar. It's really a function of how fast the mix burns to get peak pressure around 15 degrees ATDC. At lower revs, off the pipe it burns slower and with decent squish and higher than stock compression and JL pipes I am expecting it to need a lot of timing at low revs and about 20 degrees at peak torque and less after peak to heat the pipe and stretch the powerband.
When I drag it to the dyno I'll start with less advance than that - probably a flat 20 degrees and then add thee degrees everywhere and see what happens. Where that increase in timing adds power, I'll repeat the process until we get to what the motor needs.
I like a lot of compression and this motor has a Chris Livengood welded and machined squish head, so that should make a difference to timing needs.
But back to the TZR, what is causing it go lean or just the cold, dense air?
was the inline cutoff valve due to my hatred and distrust of vacuum petocks.
took it back out today, added another curve but only changed advance to 16 at 1000, 19 at 2000 (so advanced down low) and the rest the same (again the list up top isnt right but close). take off was better. held it at redline in 4th gear, no surging so i think that fixed it.
head is cut as well, 0.8mm squish, 140 psi cranking compression. :haw:
added a few things, in particular a manual petcock from a zx7, and this neat little gizmo. it gear reduces the speedo drive to make a KPH speedo read in mph, and is dead on according to gps. highly recommend if the need is there.
that's cool, and where does one find such an item?
found it on ebay NZ or Australia, but shipped from the UK. this was the seller: https://www.ebay.com/str/powerpartsuk
Yep, handy things. You can get two different types, depending on which end of the cable you wish to fit it.
I had one on my 3XC R1-Z, worked great as you say.
Fork Seals: so, after the 3rd set started leaking, i finally had to accept the fact the uppers were just too far gone to seal. so, I looked and the only ones i was able to find is from ebay, from china. while not being terribly thrilled about it, it was cheap enough to try. have to say, it really am happy w what came. I also have new bushing sin there from yambits, so aside from the lowers and the caps, all that shit is now: new.
Note the caliper, a small chuck of 1/4" aluminum in the pads held in with a bungee keeps everything ready to go for re-installation or to thwarts an accidental lever pull.
(https://2strokeworld.net/wp-content/uploads/tzr250/suspension-all/new-fork-uppers/tzr-newforks_7.jpg)
(https://2strokeworld.net/wp-content/uploads/tzr250/suspension-all/new-fork-uppers/tzr-newforks_3.jpg)
(https://2strokeworld.net/wp-content/uploads/tzr250/suspension-all/new-fork-uppers/tzr-newforks_6.jpg)
(https://2strokeworld.net/wp-content/uploads/tzr250/suspension-all/new-fork-uppers/tzr-newforks_5.jpg)
(https://2strokeworld.net/wp-content/uploads/tzr250/suspension-all/new-fork-uppers/tzr-newforks_1-1.jpg)
(https://2strokeworld.net/wp-content/uploads/tzr250/suspension-all/new-fork-uppers/tzr-newforks_2-1.jpg)
(https://2strokeworld.net/wp-content/uploads/tzr250/suspension-all/new-fork-uppers/tzr-newforks_8.jpg)
:metal: :metal:
Nice! :thumbs: Funny, I had just looked at those same tubes on eBay the other day while randomly browsing TZR stuff.
I was curious how durable that plating would be and how they would hold up over time.
got it all sorted rode it a few times. I swapped the brake line with a new one and also got a small black master cyl for it. had a small issue though, the copper washers for the banjos i got from yambots apparently are so thin, they extruded a bit, and while letting it sit overnight, it puked brake fluid ion the wheel 9had the lever zip tied to the bars to final bleed out any air bubbles). discovered this last night. so, swapped the r1 caliper back on with old school washers, then took it out for a nice hour ride across the lake, etc. the forks are doing really well, bike feels fantastic. but, if you order anything from yambits, skip the copper washers for sealing. no bueno.
Duly noted on the washers. Glad it is sorted. It sure is sweet.
The gold tubes look great!
Got a caliper from Evans, and installe dit on the TZR. works fantastic.
also, testing to see if the new image upload option works on the site.
Im using an EX300 master. Works way better than stock.
thats not a stock master. 12.7mm aftermarket. finding an angled one was tricky but works well
fuel starvation at sustained wot issue resolved.
So, as a long overdue follow up, with a zeel, fresh motor, etc, serviced tank, fuel cap vent, etc... I have always, if i held the throttle wide open for any length of time, would eventually hit a wall in the top of 3rd of 4th gear.
since in the past almost year, ive gone thru all of the 'obvious' things, i was still experiencing an issue when trying to maintain wot , on occasion (not like i ride it THAT hard ALL the time).
I think I have finally overcome my own ignorance and solved it. actually, i know i did. I probably would have gone to jail if a cop showed up while i was testing this repair out. :toot: :devil:
It boiled down to fuel line routing. I felt so dumb.
The way I GOT the bike, the line came out of the petock, aimed back, under the frame rail & airbox, looped down and between the carbs, and the tee was in between the 2 carbs w the middle leg pointed 'down'. it then took a 90 degree turn off the tee to each carb.
I didn't find any fuel line routing diagram in the manual.. but recently was looking at it and noticed the one pic, from the bottom, that showed:
the petock outlet soft line aiming down and forward.
I never noticed this, then looking closely at other images in the manual, i realized the line was much, much shorter than what i had received w the bike. i extrapolated that the line goes: forward back under the petcock, takes a RH turn under the frame rail to the 'left' port on the tee, then, the middle port go down to the feed on the LH carb, and the 'right' leg of the tee feed the RH carb.
by doing this, i removed about 1 foot or so of fuel line, and its not curving down and back up as much, acting like a sink drain (p-trap).
after i replumbed all the lines(changing noting else), I took it out and found a nice back road and held it WTFO in 1,2,3 and halfway thru 4th and it never faltered or sucked the carb bowls dry like i had in the past. I know this might have been obvious to many, but i had never seen any fuel line routing diagrams nor have since for this bike, nor am i familiar w this layout.
the OP had routed it odd i think to fit in an inline cut off valve. Mines now a manual petock so no need for that.
Just figured id share.
:metal: :metal:
So, I finally got around to doing the R1 shock conversion on the TZR. went with an R1 shock instead of the R6, as the eye to eye was closer to stock , and the side reservoir seemed to be a better fit. Only interference was it slightly rubbed the inside of the chain guard, and i just trimmed that.
Bought a junk 1kt shock off e-bay for the spring, so my original is still in-tact.
made 2 10mm id x 5mm long spacers for the top eye, and made a 30mm bushing for the bottom. bottom dims are 12mm id, 17mm od, and 30mm long. I made it out of 316SS on the lathe and it fits perfect.
Pics below show the install and the adjustments accessibility w bodywork on.
(https://2strokeworld.net/wp-content/uploads/tzr250/suspension-all/05-r1-rear-shock/tzr-r1-shock_00.jpg)
(https://2strokeworld.net/wp-content/uploads/tzr250/suspension-all/05-r1-rear-shock/tzr-r1-shock_03.jpg)
(https://2strokeworld.net/wp-content/uploads/tzr250/suspension-all/05-r1-rear-shock/tzr-r1-shock_05.jpg)
(https://2strokeworld.net/wp-content/uploads/tzr250/suspension-all/05-r1-rear-shock/tzr-r1-shock_07.jpg)
(https://2strokeworld.net/wp-content/uploads/tzr250/suspension-all/05-r1-rear-shock/tzr-r1-shock_08.jpg)
(https://2strokeworld.net/wp-content/uploads/tzr250/suspension-all/05-r1-rear-shock/tzr-r1-shock_04.jpg)
(https://2strokeworld.net/wp-content/uploads/tzr250/suspension-all/05-r1-rear-shock/tzr-r1-shock_01.jpg)
(https://2strokeworld.net/wp-content/uploads/tzr250/suspension-all/05-r1-rear-shock/tzr-r1-shock_02.jpg)
adjusting compression and rebound
(https://2strokeworld.net/wp-content/uploads/tzr250/suspension-all/05-r1-rear-shock/tzr-r1-shock_13.jpg)
(https://2strokeworld.net/wp-content/uploads/tzr250/suspension-all/05-r1-rear-shock/tzr-r1-shock_16.jpg)
I measured my stock shock preload settings and set the r1 shock to the same amount as a start since thats really related to the spring rate. since they are the same should be very close of not spot on. measured 30mm sag with me on it
as it sits now:
(https://2strokeworld.net/wp-content/uploads/tzr250/suspension-all/05-r1-rear-shock/tzr-r1-shock_12.jpg)
Very nice and keeping it in the Yamaha family too! :thumbs:
Slick ride! I always wanted the Red/White Marlboro scheme. :olaf: