I was wondering if anyone on here has built a set of these chambers? I have couple of questions.
I have built pipes like them, feel free to E-mail me any questions.
full plans/specs here
https://vanguardcycles.wordpress.com/2010/10/01/how-the-vanguard-v1s-are-made/ (https://vanguardcycles.wordpress.com/2010/10/01/how-the-vanguard-v1s-are-made/)
you wonder why these high end chambers cost so much? there has to be a huge amount of time and knowledge to build them.
Time and skill required to build pipes hasn't changed much over the years (maybe modern pulse welders are easier to get a good finish with), but knowledge has changed a lot.
70's design Denco H2 pipes vs modern Shearer pipes for the same motor. Those Dencos were probably considered top of the line 50 years ago.
those certainly dont looke like dencos. more like wirges. but, your point is spot on.
Quote from: Economy Cycle on February 01, 2023, 12:47:15 PM
full plans/specs here
https://vanguardcycles.wordpress.com/2010/10/01/how-the-vanguard-v1s-are-made/ (https://vanguardcycles.wordpress.com/2010/10/01/how-the-vanguard-v1s-are-made/)
Sorta/kinda. I have the package, some of the info in it isn't what shows in that build log. I was hoping someone had built a set on here. I know someone built a set a long time ago on one of the MC forums, flips12 screen name maybe???
We sold 8 sets of them and Nate (Van Guard owner) didn't want to do any more too labor intensive, each cone had to be laser cut, then 40+ hours of tig welding per set. He turned more than one "name your price offer".
A little teaser if anyone is interested.
(https://i.imgur.com/mJpFg1q.jpg)
yes the welding of today and the metal used is by far A+.
Did you weld that, if so amazing?
Quote from: LMS on February 02, 2023, 08:41:28 AM
Did you weld that, if so amazing?
Yes, thanks. I've been out of practice with TIG for a few years now, these are starting to get me right back in the groove, lol.
That is only 22ga sheet, fab work and fit up needs to be pretty much 100% and even then you can have some issues.
Beautiful welding for sure. Why do the last sections look like they are a size too large? It almost looks like they are a step larger than the next smaller ones. Probably an optical illusion.
And welding 22 gauge is super hard not to blow through. Are pipes usually 20 gauge or 22? I measured a few different pipes recently and metal thickness almost seemed to be 21 gauge which wouldn't make sense.
I think 20ga is a little more common and that is what was called out for these. Where I got the flats laser cut, 20ga wasn't an option so I went with 22 instead of 18. This material actually measures a little less than 22ga specs, it is .027" thick.
I built a set of chambers in the past for a Kawi triple from a cone kit that was 22ga so I felt confident enough to use the material for this.
I think some of what you see with the wrong side is a little bit of an illusion in the picture BUT, I'm having my doubts that the supplied files are what these pipes were being produced with. There are issues with the belly sections that I am currently trying to sort out and have new flats cut. Unfortunately, I am better with the welder than the computer so it is taking a little long to get where I want to go.
I fought with fit-up on those header sections which I chalked up to the "fab" work but I am wondering if there isn't some issues with those as well.
I'll get this set together but will mostly get another set cutout and put together if the modified belly sections work out.
Thanks for that info on sheet thickness. I think it tells me to use 20 gauge for street chambers and 22 for lighter applications.
You might check teh length of those two sections to see if they are the same where they join. It is possible that one file is incorrect. BTW, I once had a good look at a really nice set of pipes that worked well and I realized that one cone was reversed on both pipes. Minor discrepancies don't seem to make a whole lot of difference at street levels of performance for some reason.
I have Bassani and jemco pipes and both have a step at at least one of joins. I suspect they would make slightly more power without those steps but not enough to make it cost effective for them to be perfect. When I worked on a kart header pipe some years ago, the design that worked best was one which was closest to a smooth transition like a curve rather that sharp changes in direction or section. I don't have software or the time to see if a continuous curve would work much better and if so by how much compared to different cones. That's where hydro formed chambers might have a slight advantage.
Quote from: teazer on February 02, 2023, 08:34:24 PM
You might check teh length of those two sections to see if they are the same where they join. It is possible that one file is incorrect.
I took a look at the headers tonight, I think most of what is seen in the above pic is an illusion but there is definitely some out of round on the fab work that has caused some minor steps. And by minor steps, I mean it still was welded with basically no filler wire.
I do remember having the most issues with those pieces though so it is possible there is some length issues on some of the files. I'm not sure if I even want to look or just deal with it again when I remake them, we'll see.
That is some beautiful work oxford. It must take extreme patience to do all of that welding. It is like fine art.
I am curious if you were to sit down and do that amount of welding on those header pipes approximately how long would it take?
Finish is surprisingly pretty easy, get your settings dialed in on the machine, mash the pedal and have at it. I would say 1 hour or under per header on actual finish welding if you did your part on the fit-up.
Fit-up and tacking sections together takes much longer. You essentially need perfect alignment and zero gaps, any less and you have to "deal with it" one way or another. I really need a 3rd or 4th hand when doing it. You are trying to hold the pieces together tight and in alignment with one hand and the torch in the other. Sometimes one hand on the pieces isn't really enough and there isn't a good way to clamp/fixture it down so you have to deal with it. It would also be nice to have a piece of filler rod in your hand incase a hole starts but that also isn't an option.
The bigger radius on the headers (and belly pieces) are also a little tricky when tacking as you essentially have an open corner joint so you only have the little bit of material down in the root to hopefully fuse and have the top melt before you make a hole. This is a place where a dab of filler would be nice to get them melted together, once they are it's not as big of a deal.
Any pieces that are a little out of alignment you need to watch when tacking (and finish welding) and pay attention to torch control. You really need to start an arc on the low piece and wash up into the one that sits higher, if you don't you will have a hole.
I put my fair share of holes in those header pieces putting them together, some of them was just being out of practice, others remembering what to do and not do, others were maybe unavoidable for the situation. Key is how you deal with it when it happens.
Most of the above is where a thicker gauge material is a lot more forgiving.
im assuming you did the '3 tacks per joint' then went back and did the finish welds? iv emade good use out of a set of v blocks doing similar type work.
3 would probably work if every piece was perfect. You need to put as many as needed if you have to pull pieces together to get them into alignment with each other.
Quote from: Economy Cycle on February 01, 2023, 12:47:15 PMfull plans/specs here
https://vanguardcycles.wordpress.com/2010/10/01/how-the-vanguard-v1s-are-made/ (https://vanguardcycles.wordpress.com/2010/10/01/how-the-vanguard-v1s-are-made/)
The dyno curve indicates that these should be excellent street pipes, that do not push peak power rpm too high for reliability/ longevity. At least that is how I interpret it. But how do they compare with for example JL and Spec 2 below 5500 rpm?
Since this thread came back to the top. Here is the finished product of these.
Finished chamber thread (https://www.2strokeworld.net/forum/index.php?topic=5628.0)